@shortbus: When you use a chip - be it a gate or a micro - aren't you using someone else's technology?

No the "chip" is made to be used for what ever purpose it is needed for. But copying a product and just adding a LED is quite different. And that is what he is wanting to do, without having to purchase the toy first and making the modification, the LED, he is taking advantage of the company that came up with the original.

 

@shortbus: When you use a chip - be it a gate or a micro - aren't you using someone else's technology? How many things have you scrapped out of something else and turned it into something useful? ME? In the garage I have a chassis with the control board from a microwave oven mounted in it. The intended application for that project is to add some electrical outlets and use the timer feature for running something on a time based application. Most in particular, my soldering iron; which I seem to turn on, make a joint or two and then let it burn for hours on end. Having the timer means I can turn the iron on for 10 minutes. If I've forgotten to turn it off - it still shuts off when power is interrupted. Is this now the property of GE?

The distinction I see there is between projects you make for your own personal use vs. projects you sell. There are relatively few situations where intellectual property law (or even the morals and ethics behind the law) would prevent an individual from using almost anything however they want for personal use. As soon as you start making money from someone else's intellectual property, things get more complicated.

I'm not totally clear on exactly what the thread starter is up to in terms of business, so I don't have an opinion on whether or not this specific situation seems wrong to me.

If the chips are being bought from their original manufacturer to be used in this project, the odds are good that there's no issue (just like there's no issue using logic gates or microcontrollers in your commercial product designs.) On the other hand, if the function and behavior of the chips is being reverse engineered to be copied, whether literally or just functionally, for commercial gain, then there could be ethical and/or legal issues.

 

One more thing I can think of as a suggestion - get rid of the bridge and capacitor. Just power the LED directly from the coil. It should light brighter. Hopefully not so bright that it burns out. Add a resistor to the circuit to limit the current going to the LED. All those diodes just drop even more voltage, and you gain nothing by using the capacitor, not as far as light production is concerned.

Hello Tony! I don.t wish to have a blinking led and I don.t like Ac current (Tesla forgive me , it is just a phrase in this particular case). I wish to have a constant glow led (1.2 micro watts output) glowing....
So we have 67micro watts input and around 1.2 micro watts output (I removed only the capacitor from the bridge) untill I will improve the toy ...
as I promised I measured the current : between 0.004 ma and 0.007 ma.

 

No the "chip" is made to be used for what ever purpose it is needed for. But copying a product and just adding a LED is quite different. And that is what he is wanting to do, without having to purchase the toy first and making the modification, the LED, he is taking advantage of the company that came up with the original.

Hello !
1. The toy is for my office use and for those who wish to make a Diy educative toy with the kids. I am not seling anything.
2. I add the coils, the spinning neodymium sphere the rectifier and the led. I had a huge hadake to make that sphere spin fast....
and ofcourse I don,t want a ugly toy on my desk , but first functionality ....this is the reason I am here.....
St

 

I don't wish to have a blinking led

I guess that's true if the CPS (cycles per second) is basically 1. But then how does the ball spin at a higher rate? Would be useful if you had an oscilloscope. Next best thing you can do is hook up the LED as I suggested (no BR) and film it blinking then post that. That way we can get a real time idea of what frequency the board is pulsing at. That will go a long way to helping us understand the output better. Or better yet, just hook the LED directly to the mystery board and forget the coil for the moment.

 

1. The toy is for my office use and for those who wish to make a Diy educative toy with the kids. I am not seling anything.

I apologize for misunderstanding you. It, from a few of your posts, seemed like you wanted to market these.

You keep mentioning a neodymium sphere, how do you have the poles oriented? Oriented to the coil?

 

I also apologize ptobably, I didn't get mys elf clear untill now. None of my toys are for sale.
Back to our thread :
After I will optimize it with members help, the complicated part of the project will start and I will need all the help in the world ( refering the question you mentioned it )
I hope you will not tell me it is complicated.
As it is in the presented project : the orientation of the poles are up and down ( NOT lihe in the uploaded picture) and is strange the motor is spinning in this position, probably they are not perfectly aligned, this can be a possible answer. My next goal ( after I will improve it ) is to try to change the orientation of the magnetic poles like in the uploaded picture, it will be a huge problem ( I should find a way to sustain the sphere ..... and probably I will need another system to sustain the sphere - a low friction system - almost impossible.....- If I will succed I will be able to generate more current and voltage by alternating poles)
For the moment I am looking forward to eliminate the capacitor near the mistery chip. What do you think ?
ST

 

I guess that's true if the CPS (cycles per second) is basically 1. But then how does the ball spin at a higher rate? Would be useful if you had an oscilloscope. Next best thing you can do is hook up the LED as I suggested (no BR) and film it blinking then post that. That way we can get a real time idea of what frequency the board is pulsing at. That will go a long way to helping us understand the output better. Or better yet, just hook the LED directly to the mystery board and forget the coil for the moment.

I will try to hook the led to the mistery board. I am curios1 % chances to make that led glow, I will do that anyway. I am thinking after this test to eliminate the capacitor from of the mystery board chip, it is a " huge capacitor " to see if I can win some speed .....
I don.t have an osciloscope but I have you (refering to all ) which is more important . I am making some research in another field related with my hobby just 1 % and I do not have to many tools. I will present the movie with the blinking led as soon as possible.
THX st

 

I don't understand how it can work with the axis between the poles is vertical. Can you explain the theory of operation. I thought the poles were at right angles to the axis of rotation and depending on the polarity of the magnetic field of the pulse from the coil the pole would be attracted or repelled by each pulse so the speed of rotation would be controled by the pulse frequency. (I also assumed that the direction of rotation would be random depending on the position of a pole with respect to the coil when it was first switched on.)

Les.

 

As I promissed the video :
There is no capacitor on the bridge.

PS : for a better resolution set the quality from youtbe player settings
Thx ST

 

I don't understand how it can work with the axis between the poles is vertical. Can you explain the theory of operation. I thought the poles were at right angles to the axis of rotation and depending on the polarity of the magnetic field of the pulse from the coil the pole would be attracted or repelled by each pulse so the speed of rotation would be controled by the pulse frequency. (I also assumed that the direction of rotation would be random depending on the position of a pole with respect to the coil when it was first switched on.)

Les.

My only explain is that the poles are not perfectly aligned up and down and I am quite shure they are...... What is more strange is that when I am moving the cases to alternate a little beat the poles, the spheres vibrating and I can't obtain spinning .......
As it is the motor function like in the uploaded photo

 

I will start with the measurments of the VIMUN solar panel Sc - 3012 - 2 A VIDEO

I can.t rotate it, but the measures can be seen clearly.

St

 

As Tony sugest, I have connect the led directly to the mistery board ( respecting polarities, DC current ). The led is not starting - I have been expecting to this.
More than that the maximum voltage is around 0.77 V without load ( between 0.12-0.77 in the same conditions )

 

I am thinking after this test to eliminate the capacitor from of the mystery board chip, it is a " huge capacitor " to see if I can win some speed

If the original toy had a coil meant to make the flower dance then the capacitor is probably needed. Removing it will likely cause nothing to happen.

As Tony sugest, I have connect the led directly to the mistery board ( respecting polarities, DC current ). The led is not starting - I have been expecting to this.

I guess I should have recalled the voltage you spoke of, the 0.052 volts. That's certainly not enough to make the LED light up. Guess I didn't think that part through.

As for the alignment of the magnetic ball - you can orient it by using a small nail with some wire wrapped around it. Pass a current through it and place it next to the ball. You will be generating either a "North" pole or a "South" pole; which ever - is not important, only that you will align the field of magnetic flux. Use a marker to put a small dot on the opposite side so you know which way the flux is oriented in the sphere.

To make the LED light you'll need sufficient voltage, which, after thinking about it, this is exactly what you've been doing using the second coil. I still think a video without the rectifiers is worth it just to demonstrate the frequency the chip board is outputting. That would be a great source of information for us to figure something out.

 

can you show us how bright the led is burning in your setup ?

 

If the original toy had a coil meant to make the flower dance then the capacitor is probably needed. Removing it will likely cause nothing to happen.

I guess I should have recalled the voltage you spoke of, the 0.052 volts. That's certainly not enough to make the LED light up. Guess I didn't think that part through.

As for the alignment of the magnetic ball - you can orient it by using a small nail with some wire wrapped around it. Pass a current through it and place it next to the ball. You will be generating either a "North" pole or a "South" pole; which ever - is not important, only that you will align the field of magnetic flux. Use a marker to put a small dot on the opposite side so you know which way the flux is oriented in the sphere.

To make the LED light you'll need sufficient voltage, which, after thinking about it, this is exactly what you've been doing using the second coil. I still think a video without the rectifiers is worth it just to demonstrate the frequency the chip board is outputting. That would be a great source of information for us to figure something out.

I have removed the capacitor - As you anticipated nothing happend.
Now I. ve maked the cases smaller and I am studying the motor behaivor.
I will be back as soon as possible

 

Again I need to call BS. A single coil will not make a motor or a generator. Two coils are needed one for each polarity of the permanent magnet. A motor works with the PM poles being opposite the polarity of the electromagnet(coil), a single coil won't do it, unless that coil changes polarity.

 

Can you show us how bright the led is burning in your setup?

If you watch the latest video you can see that without the capacitor on the Bridge Rectifier board (BR board) the LED flashes. Sometimes it flashes brightly and sometimes it seems to miss a beat or two. This is likely because of the frame rate of the video camera. If you've seen dash cam videos of the new LED traffic lights you'll notice that they flicker in the same manor too. It all has to do with timing when the LED is lit and when the camera is taking a frame shot. If the LED is extinguished at that moment the camera records that the light was off. With older style traffic lights that used incandescent bulbs they never go completely out during the AC sine wave because they emit light based on a white hot filament. LED's are ON then OFF. We perceive them as being on because we can't detect flicker above about 28 frames per second. It's kind of like the old western movies where you see a wagon being pulled at high rates of speeds and it appears the wheels are going backwards.

 

A single coil will not make a motor or a generator.

I disagree. A single coil can pull a magnet toward it. If it pulses on for a brief moment and the magnet is swinging past the coil it will continue on while the coil is de-energized. Next time the coil is energized the magnet, with its momentum, will again pull toward the coil. I still think he'd be better off with an iron core if he wants to flash the LED more effectively. But for a more optimized generator you need opposing coils. I agree there.

 

Latest news : without the capacitor on the mysterious board - I can.t obtain in the same conditions DC current or Ac current (refering to the output coil 2. ) Strange . Why ? On the other hand the motor is function well.
Tomorow I will make a movie with the same system without bridge. (AC current will be obtained )