Many will be good responsible adults with a lot of help, love and supervision.

My son with autism graduated from high school with a modified diploma and is doing just fine now.

Exactly! with the proper help and work most people can become a decent productive member of society. The problem is too many expect it to come easy and for free or at someone else's expense which it will not.

Contrary to what so many think not everyone is destined to have a high power high paying executive or celebrity type job. The vast majority are never going to be anything beyond what everyone else is. Common, ordinary, unassuming, dull and paid an average wage lifestyle they will have to put an active effort into maintaining.

 

Many will be good responsible adults with a lot of help, love and supervision.

My son with autism graduated from high school with a modified diploma and is doing just fine now.

I do not think he lacked support...
In my small town, 2 years ago a mother killed her 18 year old autistic son and commited suicide herself. She was driven to this by multiple issues. I do not expect understanding from a number of people here, but it is not important.
Society is failing people is how I see it. There was a joke saying in USSR:

a drowning man is responsible for saving himself...

I hear what tcm is saying and I fundamentally disagree with him. That is all.

 

I'm very lucky my child was not main-streamed when young and had a specialized classroom with many special-ed teachers. I got the call instead of the police the few times he had a major meltdown at school.

And that's just it. It's not that the public school system don't want those kids to get an education. They do but they know they need to go someplace that can and is capable of working with them to their fullest capacity of which the public school system is not setup for an cannot effectively handle without placing a huge and unfair sacrifice on the overall education it gives everyone else for it.

The problem is they way the prescreening process and present limitations what early developmental stage advisory capacity any public school system ahs is terrible so they have little other choice but to resort to the most extreme reactionary methods to ensure that high need kids get removed from the system.

Typically calling in law enforcement to remove a kid from the grounds is the only legal way they have to remove a kid from system (drop their enrolment status for the remainder of the school year) and ensure they can't come back ( refuse next years re enrolment to kepe them and their problems out) thus forcing the kids parents to deal with their problem child by whatever means (hopefully proper at that) are needed.

 

I hear what tcm is saying and I fundamentally disagree with him. That is all.

In what way?

As with your drowning man people have to accept they will have to save themselves, or more specifically the greater whole, at whatever means is required.

I have no issue with that being I don't see everyone as indisputably equal and of value in every way simply because they were born human. Most everyone has a place in life they can fit if they are willing to put forth the effort to find it. That why I have no issue with helping those who need and want help but in the same view I have absolutely zero issue with leaving those who don't want to contribute and just live as parasites on the greater community to starve by their own actions either.

I treat people fairly but not equally.

 

I do not think he lacked support...
In my small town, 2 years ago a mother killed her 18 year old autistic son and commited suicide herself. She was driven to this by multiple issues. I do not expect understanding from a number of people here, but it is not important.
Society is failing people is how I see it. There was a joke saying in USSR:

a drowning man is responsible for saving himself...

I hear what tcm is saying and I fundamentally disagree with him. That is all.

It's not easy and I dreaded that page from the school about minor incidents. I'm sure it took years off our lives with worry and stress but the end result was worth it. Being a parent sucks at times and this made it 10X worse during his teen school years during those times. I don't know the answer but calling the police should the last thing on the list of things to do.

 

I don't know the answer but calling the police should the last thing on the list of things to do.

It should be but unfortunately too many parents have absolutely zero capacity, want ,or will to work with any school system regarding dealing with their kid (in their mind their kids a A+ student angel who's being picked on not that F- half wit feral human they really are) so the schools have no choice but to take the extreme route that allows them the option to kick the kid out entirely to protect the majority.

 

It's not easy and I dreaded that page from the school about minor incidents. I'm sure it took years off our lives with worry and stress but the end result was worth it. Being a parent sucks at times and this made it 10X worse during his teen school years during those times. I don't know the answer but calling the police should the last thing on the list of things to do.

Yes, thank you. The issue at hand to me is not about generation of snowflakes, but about thousands of children who need help because they are living in poverty, because their parents are overworked and cannot give them the attention they need at home, because one parent walked out on a disabled child because it was simpler for them to deal with the issue that way. If we are to ensure safety and security of these children when they are children, we are ensuring our own security for the future when they are adults...

I am not sure how that approach translates into "it is all parent's responsibility" when whatever those parents do/not do will impact society as a whole and directly.

p.s. everyone has capacity to learn.

 

I think I whined about the school systems on here before. One girl who will be lucky if she can grow up to feed herself and tie her own shoes has 9 government agencies catering to her every need 24 hours a day, and the better than average students have nothing to allow for them to accelerate out of the, "sleeping through school" stage. It seems to be getting worse.

 

Clock Boy gets nothing.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4522560/Federal-judge-dismisses-clock-boy-lawsuit.html

Court papers obtained by DailyMail.com reveal on May 18, a judge dismissed the entire case. The lawsuit sought unspecified compensatory and punitive damages along with attorney fees.

The judge wrote: 'Plaintiff does not allege any facts from which this court can reasonably infer that any IISD employee intentionally discriminated against Ahmed Mohamed based on his race or religion.'

 

I think I whined about the school systems on here before. One girl who will be lucky if she can grow up to feed herself and tie her own shoes has 9 government agencies catering to her every need 24 hours a day, and the better than average students have nothing to allow for them to accelerate out of the, "sleeping through school" stage. It seems to be getting worse.

That's where I take issue as well. I have no problem with the special needs and legitimately disadvantaged people getting some extra help if they prove they are likely worth it but some are and will never be anything but a cash cow (big fat unending one at that) for some agency that's true help and contributions to anything gainful are very hard to prove of any sort.

Especially so when those (so many more at that) who could do a lot more good with those resources pay and suffer for it.

I was one of the 'sleeping through school' kids. By week two after about 3 -4 th grade I had read every book I had, and any others I could find, cover to cover at least once and with an above average reading comprehension and retention ability I rarely had to open them again for the whole year to know what was going on in class. Heck screwing around until I got in trouble for not listening or paying attention then quoting the text book or the last minute o f what the teacher said word for word just to prove I knew what was going on in detail was a rather enjoyable hobby of mine.

Given that it meant a had a world of free time to raise hell with every teacher I had that gave me any reason to question their ability to teach which being the school I went to seem to prefer the hire the bottom of the bottom people (drunks and those who just gave up that only worked hard enough to keep their paycheck) I had a lot of hell to raise every day!

Personally I would have loved to have had some sort of advanced learning classes to work with. I probably would have become a better more productive person than I am now for it but unfortunately given I saw no rewards that justified the crap I had to put up with so I grew up to rather not care about doing any more than I need to to get what I want.

 

Clock Boy gets nothing.
l

That's exactly why the public school system has to take a absolute zero tolerance with maximum reaction policy on everything that happens now.

They can't risk not to because every school system has one or more parents of a student who is just drooling over the possibility of being able to twist anything they can into a lawsuit payout.

 

That's where I take issue as well. I have no problem with the special needs and legitimately disadvantaged people getting some extra help if they prove they are likely worth it but some are and will never be anything but a cash cow (big fat unending one at that) for some agency that's true help and contributions to anything gainful are very hard to prove of any sort.

Especially so when those (so many more at that) who could do a lot more good with those resources pay and suffer for it.

I was one of the 'sleeping through school' kids. By week two after about 3 -4 th grade I had read every book I had, and any others I could find, cover to cover at least once and with an above average reading comprehension and retention ability I rarely had to open them again for the whole year to know what was going on in class. Heck screwing around until I got in trouble for not listening or paying attention then quoting the text book or the last minute o f what the teacher said word for word just to prove I knew what was going on in detail was a rather enjoyable hobby of mine.

Given that it meant a had a world of free time to raise hell with every teacher I had that gave me any reason to question their ability to teach which being the school I went to seem to prefer the hire the bottom of the bottom people (drunks and those who just gave up that only worked hard enough to keep their paycheck) I had a lot of hell to raise every day!

Personally I would have loved to have had some sort of advanced learning classes to work with. I probably would have become a better more productive person than I am now for it but unfortunately given I saw no rewards that justified the crap I had to put up with so I grew up to rather not care about doing any more than I need to to get what I want.

Then I will turn the table and say to you - of you were so advanced for school, learn on your own. Rise up above the system that brings you down.

Your attitude is sad. I am curious on whether there are any suggestions for improvement and yours seems to be to cull the herd in a way...

Here is something for you, a suffered from seizures for a number of years. At one point things were very bad and I was very depressed. I had no support and my mom was also struggling with her own issues. I was seriously contemplaitong suicide because nothing was getting better - should I have done this? I had nothing gainful to contribute at the time. How much time would you give me to start contributing gainfully before you pass your judgement? Or is your judgement different because we interact a bit?

You are so easily writing about CHILDREN and whether they have anything gainful to contribute it is frightening.

 

It's only recently in human history that we send our kids to school at all. My grandparents learned to read and write, but their parents didn't. My parents got to go to college because they were exceptional students - most of their cohorts did not. Now, I would guess that most of my children's cohorts have gone through college, except for the few that chose not to.

My point is that, over time and depending on resources, we have earned the luxury of sending virtually all of the next generation to secondary school and beyond, even when it is unlikely to be worth their time and money. The extreme contrast to that is nomadic cultures killing off their children before a big move, because they knew the children could not endure the trip and they didn't have the resources to save them. In between these extremes we have the lifetimes of me and my parents, when limited resources
were prioritized to the children that would likely deliver the best ROI.

As a society, I believe we may have passed a tipping point where we now devote so much of our resources to non-productive activities that we cannot advance quickly enough to save ourselves. We spend huge sums on every sad cause that tugs at our heartstrings, and do little more than hope that the future will be brighter. Our ancestors worked very hard to make the future - our future - brighter and accepted the fact that there were sacrifices to be made. Now we want it all with no sacrifice.

I don't pretend to know the answer of how to allocate resources between the present and the future. I just know the future is coming at us whether we ready ourselves or not.

 

Now we want it all with no sacrifice.

And our descendants will pay the price of our selfishness...

 

It's only recently in human history that we send our kids to school at all. My grandparents learned to read and write, but their parents didn't. My parents got to go to college because they were exceptional students - most of their cohorts did not. Now, I would guess that most of my children's cohorts have gone through college, except for the few that chose not to.

My point is that, over time and depending on resources, we have earned the luxury of sending virtually all of the next generation to secondary school and beyond, even when it is unlikely to be worth their time and money. The extreme contrast to that is nomadic cultures killing off their children before a big move, because they knew the children could not endure the trip and they didn't have the resources to save them. In between these extremes we have the lifetimes of me and my parents, when limited resources
were prioritized to the children that would likely deliver the best ROI.

As a society, I believe we may have passed a tipping point where we now devote so much of our resources to non-productive activities that we cannot advance quickly enough to save ourselves. We spend huge sums on every sad cause that tugs at our heartstrings, and do little more than hope that the future will be brighter. Our ancestors worked very hard to make the future - our future - brighter and accepted the fact that there were sacrifices to be made. Now we want it all with no sacrifice.

I don't pretend to know the answer of how to allocate resources between the present and the future. I just know the future is coming at us whether we ready ourselves or not.

the start would be of course first admitting that there is a systemic failure. Get rid of TED talks and self help books.

Higher education is a money making institution now and has little to nothing to do with education. Where I am, of you want to make money, start as a laborer early, training is paid for, all sorts of advancement possible. Be smart, retire early. Make $40/hr as a starting wage. University is supposed to develop critical thinking, not shut down all discussion...

p.s. I should add, we are making a sacrifice, we are sacrificing our future. But we do not really know what for...

 

Then I will turn the table and say to you - of you were so advanced for school, learn on your own. Rise up above the system that brings you down.

Your attitude is sad. I am curious on whether there are any suggestions for improvement and yours seems to be to cull the herd in a way...

Here is something for you, a suffered from seizures for a number of years. At one point things were very bad and I was very depressed. I had no support and my mom was also struggling with her own issues. I was seriously contemplaitong suicide because nothing was getting better - should I have done this? I had nothing gainful to contribute at the time. How much time would you give me to start contributing gainfully before you pass your judgement? Or is your judgement different because we interact a bit?

You are so easily writing about CHILDREN and whether they have anything gainful to contribute it is frightening.

It's not frightening. It's just accepting that for the greater good of the whole that which does not and can not contribute, the individual. certain individuals, has to be eliminated for the greater good. It's a simple fact of good stewardship of life's resources of which in society every person is just one small barely consequential part of a greater whole of humanity and not some immeasurably precious item of irreplaceable value.

I write about such things because that's that life I grew up in. I understand and accept the very act of willinglyu having to decide what something s ultimate value for or against the greater whole of a system is worth and I have no problem with making the decision to get rid of that which carries too high of negative value in order to keep the greater part of things going. What's so difficult about that concept?

You can't fix something that broken by keeping the parts that are broken and preventing the system from functioning in place, can you?

As for yourself, when you had medical problems did you put an active effort into finding a solution for yourself or did you just sit and whine about it hoping someone would come along and fix it for you or that just maybe the problem would somehow cure itself? If you put an effort into getting help I have no problem with it or what was done to make you better again.

However if all you did was whine about it without ever trying to find help you can starve to death for all I care.

I'm not against those who need help getting help within reason. I have never said otherwise no matter how badly you want read that into what I say.
What I am against is wasting huge amounts of social resources on lost causes that never did and never will be able to contribute in any way whatsoever.

Using Nsaspook and his son for example , He put forth the effort to be a good and responsible parent and got his son into a system that was designed and created to work specifically with kids who have his sons disability and for it his son is now a better person for it plus a literal bus load or more of average kids who were in whatever public school his son would have otherwise went didn't have to sacrifice their educations and what futures they may have some day for it as well.
To me that action was and is a very honorable and socially justifiable one being the right approach to the issue was taken and it was not just passed off on the general public to suck it up for him largely at the cost of others. A cost we as a society cannot continue to pay as we all damn well see and know already by the very examples of the horrible example of education's our kids are now getting from our public schools. To me that's what being a good and responsible parent and human being is about. Doing whats best given the resources and options available and not just passing it along to someone else at all costs to them.

So to be fair here a few questions for you.

Do you think that as a society we should continue to dump vast amounts of resources at all costs into supporting those who can't, never could and never will contribute while producing a whole culture of those who will be incapable of contributing as well because our society burned up all the resources that could have been used to make them into decent contributing and societally gainful people?

If you ran society and had someone who was in your position at what level do you draw the line at keeping you alive? Do you use up 10 peoples lifetimes of resources to keep you alive? How about 100? or 1000? or 10,000? What's keeping you alive at the total sacrifice of other peoples otherwise gainfully contributing lives worth knowing that every lifetimes worth of resources used up to keep you alive essentially kills someone else's chance to be something, anything above you and what you represent to the world? What's fair to them and how do you plan to explain to them that because of keeping you alive they all will have crappy miserable lives that amount to nothing?

Just curious how you see it, because that's the hard reality our society is facing right now. For every useless person who will never contribute several others who could and would can't and won't because that useless person used up too many the resources that would have been available to make them into people who would contribute.

That's why I believe in cutting one loose to save many opposed to killing everyone so that one doesn't have to feel bad about themself.

 

And our descendants will pay the price of our selfishness...

Not our descendants. Us here and now.

We are already paying for it and for those who see and understand where the problem came and comes from if it's easy to see that if it's not changed it's a guaranteed death sentence to all of us and everything we stand for plus everyone who follows.

 

It's not frightening. It's just accepting that for the greater good of the whole that which does not and can not contribute, the individual. certain individuals, has to be eliminated for the greater good. It's a simple fact of good stewardship of life's resources of which in society every person is just one small barely consequential part of a greater whole of humanity and not some immeasurably precious item of irreplaceable value.

I write about such things because that's that life I grew up in. I understand and accept the very act of willinglyu having to decide what something s ultimate value for or against the greater whole of a system is worth and I have no problem with making the decision to get rid of that which carries too high of negative value in order to keep the greater part of things going. What's so difficult about that concept?

You can't fix something that broken by keeping the parts that are broken and preventing the system from functioning in place, can you?

As for yourself, when you had medical problems did you put an active effort into finding a solution for yourself or did you just sit and whine about it hoping someone would come along and fix it for you or that just maybe the problem would somehow cure itself? If you put an effort into getting help I have no problem with it or what was done to make you better again.

However if all you did was whine about it without ever trying to find help you can starve to death for all I care.

I'm not against those who need help getting help within reason. I have never said otherwise no matter how badly you want read that into what I say.
What I am against is wasting huge amounts of social resources on lost causes that never did and never will be able to contribute in any way whatsoever.

Using Nsaspook and his son for example , He put forth the effort to be a good and responsible parent and got his son into a system that was designed and created to work specifically with kids who have his sons disability and for it his son is now a better person for it plus a literal bus load or more of average kids who were in whatever public school his son would have otherwise went didn't have to sacrifice their educations and what futures they may have some day for it as well.
To me that action was and is a very honorable and socially justifiable one being the right approach to the issue was taken and it was not just passed off on the general public to suck it up for him largely at the cost of others. A cost we as a society cannot continue to pay as we all damn well see and know already by the very examples of the horrible example of education's our kids are now getting from our public schools. To me that's what being a good and responsible parent and human being is about. Doing whats best given the resources and options available and not just passing it along to someone else at all costs to them.

So to be fair here a few questions for you.

Do you think that as a society we should continue to dump vast amounts of resources at all costs into supporting those who can't, never could and never will contribute while producing a whole culture of those who will be incapable of contributing as well because our society burned up all the resources that could have been used to make them into decent contributing and societally gainful people?

If you ran society and had someone who was in your position at what level do you draw the line at keeping you alive? Do you use up 10 peoples lifetimes of resources to keep you alive? How about 100? or 1000? or 10,000? What's keeping you alive at the total sacrifice of other peoples otherwise gainfully contributing lives worth knowing that every lifetimes worth of resources used up to keep you alive essentially kills someone else's chance to be something, anything above you and what you represent to the world? What's fair to them and how do you plan to explain to them that because of keeping you alive they all will have crappy miserable lives that amount to nothing?

Just curious how you see it, because that's the hard reality our society is facing right now. For every useless person who will never contribute several others who could and would can't and won't because that useless person used up too many the resources that would have been available to make them into people who would contribute.

That's why I believe in cutting one loose to save many opposed to killing everyone so that one doesn't have to feel bad about themself.

I will only answer one of these - being in my early 20s, foreign to western culture and sinking into depression, yes I was not looking firther than what my doctor was offering. The doctor overlooked something and nearly killed me. I am lucky to have survived. I was stupid enough to trust someone with the only thing that matters - my health. I know better now. It was a hard lesson. But I am supposed to be able to trust a doctor, a teacher etc...

Second, for secondary school, I am basically self taught.

I am curious to know what is a contribution in your eyes?

an FYI - http://isreview.org/issue/82/education-literacy-and-russian-revolution

sure, I wasn't born at that time, but history is a powerful thing. If you couldn'd do basic math at 6, you were not getting into grade 1... simple as that

 

I am curious to know what is a contribution in your eyes?

Simple. If you are able in body and mind enough to hold at least a menial task job either on your own or through a work assistance program you're able to contribute to society.
If there are jobs that can be had that you are capable of learning to do you are able to work.

Anyone who sits on their ass all day because 'they don't feel like working' or that whatever type of work that is available is 'below them' or because social welfare provides better than their standards require is a useless person who should be cut loose from the system and left to either fend for themselves or starve.

If you are too proudly lazy or ignorant to work you need to be cut from the system. Same with those too dumb, irresponsible or screwed up to raise kids. They should be sterilized and if necessary their kids placed somewhere where they have the chance to grow up with normal opportunities and responsibilities to become useful people. If not they too should be sterilized and can join the rest of the useless nobodies who have the capacity but not the want or will to contribute.

I have no issue with those who are born below the natural capacity to function in society or those who become disabled by whatever events bring them to that point. I however have a huge problem with handing them a life in value and cost far above that of the average honest hard working low income person when they don not need or require it. I also have a huge problem with those who who get rich from catering to such people as well at the expense of society.

As far as I'm concerned unless you did something to actively contribute to society until you became ill or injured society as a whole owes you nothing above the absolute bare minimums to live on and anything above that comes from charity.

Fro those who can work but don't want to or have fallen on hard times the modernized version of this would be fitting in my views.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workhouse

 

The relevance of this book to what is happening today is chilling.