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Could be. There are societal costs being placed upon us that we aren't willingly accepting. Just like pollution, the market needs help to connect the costs to those who can respond to the incentive.
The right to repair...
- Thread starter cmartinez
- Start date
There are a few sides to this topic. I don't agree with the right to repair" under warranty. There needs to be some training and accounting for warranty repairs. We can't reasonably expect a manufacturer to allow warranty repairs by anyone anywhere. Once the item is out of warranty, all bets are off. Anyone that has the skill should be able to repair anything. I do this today with electronics. I will warranty my own work. I stay away from things that have too much liability though. For example, I will not repair medical devices that control oxygen or anything else that is life preserving. Most of my work is at the component level and rarely will I replace a board. Usually the board replacements happen when the board is completely fried or parts are not available in reasonable quantities or cost. I have replaced many LEDs on backlights rather than the entire strip too.
It seems that the argument for the "right to repair" is also about access to service manuals etc. I recall from my warranty station days, paying an annual fee for access to these manuals. As long as these are purchased, I don't think that it should matter if the shop is a warranty station or not.
The issue with car computer systems is similar. I personally would not want the liability if I were to update a computer incorrectly that resulted in an accident. I do recall fixing a module for my son that would have cost $300 or more for the part. It turns out that capacitors that were used did not hold up to temperature extremes and would fail. $5 later and the module was working again. Note though, no programming was involved.
Dan
It seems that the argument for the "right to repair" is also about access to service manuals etc. I recall from my warranty station days, paying an annual fee for access to these manuals. As long as these are purchased, I don't think that it should matter if the shop is a warranty station or not.
The issue with car computer systems is similar. I personally would not want the liability if I were to update a computer incorrectly that resulted in an accident. I do recall fixing a module for my son that would have cost $300 or more for the part. It turns out that capacitors that were used did not hold up to temperature extremes and would fail. $5 later and the module was working again. Note though, no programming was involved.
Dan
Propertech
- Joined Feb 20, 2019
- 2
Manufacturers often use reduced quality tin for soldering, devices stop working after couple of years even months because changes temperature makes cold joints. Good example is TV’s often stop working because cold joints appeared under chips. I fixed many TVs just by reflow main boards. This is a common problem.
Another great example how manufacturers obtain the short life period for devices is gluing or pouring parts on boards before reflow process. They use “special” glue which becomes conducive after couple of years also by changes temperatures. Common problem in subwoofers, active speakers and SMPS. I have done many repairs which glue problem.
This is weird how they doing things just for profit.
Another great example how manufacturers obtain the short life period for devices is gluing or pouring parts on boards before reflow process. They use “special” glue which becomes conducive after couple of years also by changes temperatures. Common problem in subwoofers, active speakers and SMPS. I have done many repairs which glue problem.
This is weird how they doing things just for profit.
Is this not commercial capitalism.
@cmartinez sounds like wishful thinking. I'm sure all these "improvements" will cause a spike in pricing. Some consumers may just still throw away or destroy their electronics so anyone would have a hard time reconstructing it .....
of course, the next step could be a repeat of BREXIT dissolving the EU.
of course, the next step could be a repeat of BREXIT dissolving the EU.
could be... I guess we're gonna have to wait and see...
I'm afraid your post belongs to a different thread, AD...
Analog Ground
- Joined Apr 24, 2019
- 460
Yep. Sorry. Moved it!
Nice report. The problem is us wanting to hold the government accountable for things like pollution yet, they want people without the proper diagnostic equipment to repair items that pollute.
I don't foresee a day where the farm equipment undergo registration and licensing annually. It will become cheaper for the farmer to break up their lands for commercial and residential development. That would reduce the farming enterprises and drive up the consumer price of food.
Now all of that from one who believes in repairing yourself if you desire. Maybe, just maybe, the factory should encourage self repair but offer a scheduled "certification" check on their worries of excess emissions and such. The engineers can design a portable tester that can be purchased which would printout the results. Hell, sell that product to the consumer as well.
If your competent enough to do the repairs .... good for you. I have no objection to self repairs. Will society? I'm sure that is a untenable question given today's political climate. Political in this sense coincides with Aristotle's teachings, not as we know it today.
I don't foresee a day where the farm equipment undergo registration and licensing annually. It will become cheaper for the farmer to break up their lands for commercial and residential development. That would reduce the farming enterprises and drive up the consumer price of food.
Now all of that from one who believes in repairing yourself if you desire. Maybe, just maybe, the factory should encourage self repair but offer a scheduled "certification" check on their worries of excess emissions and such. The engineers can design a portable tester that can be purchased which would printout the results. Hell, sell that product to the consumer as well.
If your competent enough to do the repairs .... good for you. I have no objection to self repairs. Will society? I'm sure that is a untenable question given today's political climate. Political in this sense coincides with Aristotle's teachings, not as we know it today.
I personally think the farmer ICE air pollution objection is a crock. What's the total percentage of air pollution from every farm implement in the world vs the number of cars in Los Angles?
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions
Our young ones have been trained in the "throw-away" mentality. My son-in-law knows next to nothing about fixing automobiles. I've been teaching him, but his own father is of the opinion - "Just get a new one." Granted, I'm not a fan of Ford automotive products, not big on Dodge or GM, but the point is that I spend more time helping him fix his Mercury Grand Marquis than I spend teaching him about electronics or wood working. He, though I love him dearly, is the typical American with the typical mentality of 'if you can afford it - buy new and throw away the old.' But too many people see "Throw-Away" as simply getting something out of sight and out of mind. They don't realize that landfills fill up with that stuff. It leaks environmentally unfriendly fluids and the metals rust while the plastics remain for thousands of years. Which is my #1 reason why I want to fix things that may seem long past their prime. I have a 2003 Compaq computer that needs fixing. It runs Windows XP. OK, XP is not protected from internet dangers, but I don't intend to use it for internet purposes. So fixing it and using it is reasonable. XP does some of the easiest tasks I've ever done with a computer. Newer OS work better, but XP works fine.
Why fix instead of throw away? Because throw away is wasteful. It's harmful to the environment. It wastes brain matter. My dad taught me how a gasoline engine (four stroke) works. Taught me when I took his brand new gas mower apart. Wanted to see what was inside that made it work. I learned to see with my mind's eye. To visualize. And it's a skill that has served me well in many areas and in many ways. Electronics has been more difficult to visualize, but I do my best and stay away from areas where I lack competence. But I'm willing to learn. I'll try to fix anything before throwing it away. It's something we all have a moral right to do. And a moral obligation as well.
Why fix instead of throw away? Because throw away is wasteful. It's harmful to the environment. It wastes brain matter. My dad taught me how a gasoline engine (four stroke) works. Taught me when I took his brand new gas mower apart. Wanted to see what was inside that made it work. I learned to see with my mind's eye. To visualize. And it's a skill that has served me well in many areas and in many ways. Electronics has been more difficult to visualize, but I do my best and stay away from areas where I lack competence. But I'm willing to learn. I'll try to fix anything before throwing it away. It's something we all have a moral right to do. And a moral obligation as well.
Amen. My thinking is, it's already broke so why not try to fix it. A lot of the speacilaized automotive toolsI have were swap meet finds that were *broke* in the sellers mind. Buy cheap, fix and use.
Was given a ride-on lawn tractor - not one of those little ones. Wouldn't run. Got it for free. Took the carburetor off and cleaned it. Put it back on and cut the grass. Sold it for $350 because it was too big to keep. Had no storage space for it. Wish I'd have made space. Would be great for clearing snow.
As for the lawn mower part of it - that was pretty well worn. But could be replaced easy enough. And many parts could have been fabricated and welded on. For instance, the skids that keep the mower deck at a certain elevation. Oh well.
As for the lawn mower part of it - that was pretty well worn. But could be replaced easy enough. And many parts could have been fabricated and welded on. For instance, the skids that keep the mower deck at a certain elevation. Oh well.
I too try to fix as many things as possible although I also have my lower limit - depending on how one thing is made I really couldn't be bothered, but that bar is really low. Most of the equipment in my house has gone under an iteration of repair from me, ranging from appliances to machinery (HVAC, pool equipment) to computing. My reasoning to go through all the trouble is similar to yours: it is already broken, thus it doesn't hurt trying to fix it or at least see how it works or how it looks inside - but I know it requires one to be curious enough to try to make the best of it when delving into the innards of these things, even if a repair is beyond one's abilities (or practicality).
All my main PC computers are 8 to 12 years old running Windows 7 and 8.1 and have been repaired or upgraded by me in bits and pieces. I also have a few laptops and netbooks running XP and a selection of spare parts (motherboards, HDDs, floppy drives, cables, etc.) that people simply throw away or pay as part of a repair/data recovery service. They all still run fine and have good performance for what they do. I also love vintage computing and went through the trouble of restoring a few oldies, but that is pure hobby without real practical use.
I agree and feel dismayed when all the discussion about waste and environment carefully leaves product durability and repairability out of the equation. But that is a discussion for another thread (I don't want to throw gasoline on a heated topic).
My dad also taught me a lot of practical abilities and I am forever thankful that I was curious enough to pay attention and be hooked on it. My brother, on the other hand, was exposed to the same environment but never had the inclination to do this - he is brilliant on so many other levels, but manual work is not one of them. So, it also takes a bit of personality and interest to dive into this.
No one is stopping anyone from repairing anything. That being said, a number of complaints are about the manufacturer not providing the documentation to do such repairs. Authorized service centers have the documentation. You can buy the documentation from different websites. Nothing prevents you from buying spares to swap out different subsystems. Nothing prevents you from buying the requisite test equipment to troubleshoot, repair, and ensure it's back to the OEM designs. Nothing prevents you from attending a factory school, assuming you met the prerequisites.
Granted they do not provide the schematics of the "computer." However, would it surprise anyone on how a NTC resistor is used or any other "sensor" reports back to the computer to output to an enunciator panel (your dash board).
There are different third party vendors who will sell you a modified chip to increase the Horse Power of your International Harvester Truck or any other vehicle.
Ok ... there is something ... money and pre-requisites ... and if a vehicle ... the ability to pass an emissions tests for those who have them in their country/state/county.
On the electronics side, your always weighing the cost of repair -v- new. With new you can get the minimal guarantee, new features, and increased capacity, typically for less than the price you previously paid. What is your "break-point" between repair or new? What is your hourly rate that you used in your computations? If your making $150 per hour, would you spend more than 1 hour attempting to fix a $100 item? Now if your doing this for fun, a mental exercise, or lack of funds, what I said is immaterial, you weigh heavily on the repair side of the equation. If your paying someone $150 to repair a $100 item ... well ... it's your money and I'll go quietly into the shadows.
Granted they do not provide the schematics of the "computer." However, would it surprise anyone on how a NTC resistor is used or any other "sensor" reports back to the computer to output to an enunciator panel (your dash board).
There are different third party vendors who will sell you a modified chip to increase the Horse Power of your International Harvester Truck or any other vehicle.
Ok ... there is something ... money and pre-requisites ... and if a vehicle ... the ability to pass an emissions tests for those who have them in their country/state/county.
On the electronics side, your always weighing the cost of repair -v- new. With new you can get the minimal guarantee, new features, and increased capacity, typically for less than the price you previously paid. What is your "break-point" between repair or new? What is your hourly rate that you used in your computations? If your making $150 per hour, would you spend more than 1 hour attempting to fix a $100 item? Now if your doing this for fun, a mental exercise, or lack of funds, what I said is immaterial, you weigh heavily on the repair side of the equation. If your paying someone $150 to repair a $100 item ... well ... it's your money and I'll go quietly into the shadows.
