The right to repair...

Tonyr1084

Joined Sep 24, 2015
7,853
No one is stopping anyone from repairing anything. That being said, a number of complaints are about the manufacturer not providing the documentation to do such repairs. Authorized service centers have the documentation. You can buy the documentation from different websites. Nothing prevents you from buying spares to swap out different subsystems.
Told this story before. MIL's (Mother in law) GE washing machine failed. OBD (On Board Diagnostics) said it was an open mode shift coil. Repairman said he wanted between $333 and $400 (US) to fix. MIL decided to scrap it and buy new. Stopped her. Took the machine home and tested the coil and sure enough - it was open. So I cracked the case open and found a pristine coil, no sign of any problems whatsoever. Other than being open. So I checked the Fusible Link (FL). It was open. So I did some calc's and went to Radio Shack and bought a new FL for $1.98 plus tax and crimped the new FL in place of the old FL. The machine has been working nicely ever since. According to the calc's the old FL was rated for 106% of normal operation. The one I put in was rated for 133% of normal operation.

The reason for the high price is because you can't get the Mode Shift Coil. You had to buy the whole entire mechanical part assembly for $135.00. The rest was labor because you'd have to disassemble the whole tub. The MSC was held on with just two bolts and plugged in. It was the easiest part of the washer to remove. Yet you couldn't get a new MSC. Could have if I bought the whole shebang for $135 and just swapped the MSC. But then I would have had an extra entire mechanism with no other purpose.
 

JoeJester

Joined Apr 26, 2005
4,390
The reason for the high price is because you can't get the Mode Shift Coil.
The reason it cost so much is you are replacing the module ... irrespective of the failure. Then they send the board off to be refurbished to as NEW.

Now the question is what was the labor rate? You can bet 60% of that repair was service charges. The company can and probably does, keep track of the parts replace and the time for repair. Time is used to give you the average price and estimate from average to high. Parts to accurrately reflect the known failures related to that error code.

Now just because you found a fuse, replaced it, and it worked, why did the fuse blow? We know it blew because of the excessive current. Any idea of what initiated that failure?

Auto repair hops around here have a $125 shop hourly rate.
Some tablet repair shops advertise a flat rate of $150. How many hours do you think they will spend on a tablet.

Everyone makes a financial decision. Your MIL was lucky you decided to take a look at it.

I'm sure you didn't track it but you had

Uninstallation time
diagnostic time
research parts time
travel time to/from parts store
time spent in the store
repair time
travel time to MILs to reinstall
reinstall time
test time
return travel time.

and maybe out of area mileage.

I don't know your hourly rate but there is the time you would would receive compensation for.

Some of that time is averaged so no one pays the average vice the high end because of the person doing the work is an apprentice.
 
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Wolframore

Joined Jan 21, 2019
2,609
Great topic,

Scenario: I agree don’t fix things under warranty. But take a phone. Accidental screen damage is not covered by warranty, so you’re handy or you find a 3rd party to replace the screen. You have a problem 6 months later, an unrelated issue, the phone not charging. Manufacturer now says we won’t repair your phone because your previous repair was unauthorized.

You can buy most replacement parts online for your Apple but did you know the home button will not work if it’s not done by Apple? Not sure if it’s software or a ID in the chip.

Another scenario: laptop sent to manufacturer because keyboard isnt working. Origionally quoted as a $80 repair, they notice water damage and now It will cost $850. Customer is warned not to open otherwise will not be repairable. Customer opens and fixes with a $12 part.

pretty soon our circuit board will be similar to IC’s. I was contacted by a PCB manufacturer who was offering imbedded resistors. Apparently they use some resistive material in an inner layer to my specification. It won’t be long til they offer more Passives.

imagine trying to fix that board, let alone trace it without a diagram.

I hack things and have no problems with it. Eff these guys who think they know better than everyone else and all their customers are idiots. Once I buy it it’s mine and I will do what I want with it. John Deere sounds horrible. I don’t want to be married to the manufacturer just because I buy their product.

I read in Popular Mechanics that the previous generation, it wasnt uncommon to find a lathe and machining tools in a garage. Its the sign of the time. No more shop classes and loss of very useful skills. We shipped skilled labor out to the cheapest bidder sent them our knowledge and now look where we are.
 

SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
5,031
Industrial electrical gear usually had ~25 year MTBF (mean time before failure) and even then many larger ticket items such as motors and switchgear were easily repairable with plant stocked parts. If no, there were rebuild shops. Commercial and consumer not so much. Some of the plant electrical gear was over 50 years old and still in constant use. Now with the fast advances in technology some equipment is not designed to last more than a few years and is becoming disposable instead of repairable. One example was a Garmin GPS I had on the boat that became erratic after 10 years of sitting out in the weather on the boat. Garmin has a program where you can send them equipment and they will send you a factory repaired replacement immediately instead of waiting for repairs. Not my unit. In 10 years it's life cycle was over and parts no longer available for repairs. The Garmin Sonar and Icom VHF that were sitting beside it are still working fine but they will also be throwaways.

Recent news article pointed out all 50 states have tried to enact "right to repair" laws. NONE have passed.
 

jpanhalt

Joined Jan 18, 2008
11,087
I read in Popular Mechanics that the previous generation, it wasnt uncommon to find a lathe and machining tools in a garage. Its the sign of the time. No more shop classes and loss of very useful skills. We shipped skilled labor out to the cheapest bidder sent them our knowledge and now look where we are.
Maybe I am the previous generation to the previous generation. At one time, I had 3 lathes and a mill ( plus shear, welder, rollers, etc. ) in my garage. Today, I am down to just 2 lathes and 2 mills plus shear, rollers, etc. One of the mills is a HF mill I bought in desparation when temporarily in an apartment. ;) It is a challenge to use.

I love tools and take care of the ones I have accumulated over the past 60+ years.
 

Wolframore

Joined Jan 21, 2019
2,609
I’m not previous generation but I have a lathe, mill, press, drill press, 3 welders, metal cutting band saw and countless grinders including my newest tool contra angle grinder for porting engines.

I don’t mind buying new or replacements but when they need to be replaced 2 or 3 times a year I make a better solution.
 

jpanhalt

Joined Jan 18, 2008
11,087
I’m not previous generation but I have a lathe, mill, press, drill press, 3 welders, metal cutting band saw and countless grinders including my newest tool contra angle grinder for porting engines.

I don’t mind buying new or replacements but when they need to be replaced 2 or 3 times a year I make a better solution.
I am with you. So far, nothing is CNC. BUT, I bought a CNC kit for my mill -- just haven't needed it yet. IMHO, a lot of people don't realize the benefit of good grinders. Something like this with a diamond cupped sisk is invaluable:

1602541604649.png
 

Thread Starter

cmartinez

Joined Jan 17, 2007
8,220
I am with you. So far, nothing is CNC. BUT, I bought a CNC kit for my mill -- just haven't needed it yet. IMHO, a lot of people don't realize the benefit of good grinders. Something like this with a diamond cupped sisk is invaluable:

View attachment 219476
Pretty soon I'm going to have to buy a small lathe (which I plan to later retrofit with one of my CNC controls) and I'm going to have to learn how to make proper cutting tools for it. Your advice about having a good grinder is invaluable. Thanks for posting.
 

Tonyr1084

Joined Sep 24, 2015
7,853
why did the fuse blow? We know it blew because of the excessive current. Any idea of what initiated that failure?
The part failed because it was rated for only 106% of normal expected operation. Would you use a 1 watt resistor for a circuit drawing 940mW through that resistor? Probably not. I consider the 106% thing an engineered obsolescence. Planned failure. The machine was used by my MIL somewhat infrequently, and with mostly light loads. There was no other failure whatsoever to account for the failed component. Now it's "Possible" that in St. George UT. where summers are hotter than snot - it could have been enough heat generated in the device combined with ambient temperature. The machine was kept in the garage. Outdoor summer temperatures of 110˚F are common. This year temp's hit somewhere (in recollection) around 119˚F. Inside the garage was always hotter.

Just a reminder for those who may not know, a Fusible Link is designed to go open in excessive heat conditions. Electrical current can add to the amount of heat, but its main purpose is to prevent fires.

The reason it cost so much is you are replacing the module ... irrespective of the failure. Then they send the board off to be refurbished to as NEW.
Purely mechanical or electromechanical. The brain was unaffected, nor was it needing to be replaced.
I'm sure you didn't track it but you had

Uninstallation time
diagnostic time
{etc. see post #122}
The coil was on the bottom of the machine. Simple inversion of the machine gave access to the two bolts holding it down. Didn't take long to check for continuity with a meter. Didn't take long to drill out the rivet that held it closed. Spent maybe 5 minutes deciding it was the FL. Cut it out. OK, the drive to Radio Shack must have taken all of 10 minutes there and 10 back. Cutting up a red butt splice and peeling the plastic off it and crimping the FL back in circuit. Riveting the shell closed again - two minutes maybe. Installing it? Less than one min. Standing it up; filling it with the garden hose, testing it - maybe 15 min max. Satisfied it was functioning properly, I drained it, put it back on the truck and back to MIL's house. The drive was less than 15 min one way, so a half hour round trip over the river and through the woods to MIL's house I went. Brother-in-law helped me carry it up stairs. Connected hoses and plugged it in - - - I'd say my invested time couldn't have been more than two hours. At the outside - three hours; but that seems on the long side.

In summary, two bolts and a plug - the coil was off. Drilled out rivet. Cut FL out. New FL. Riveted the shell closed. Two bolts and a plug and the unit was fixed.

The OTHER way was to buy the whole mechanical assembly (that didn't include the motor), unbolt the mechanism from the frame and from the tub. Reverse the process to install the new mech - and you have another factory original coil rated for 106% normal operation. Naahhh. Cheaper and better. LOTS cheaper. LOTS better.

So it goes in the throw-away world, this machine would have ended up being scrapped. I'd have a practically brand new inverter motor and some mechanical parts to play with. Oh, and a water pump too.
 

SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
5,031
My Father-in-law is a retired Master Machinist and one of his many jobs was buying and rebuilding old machine tools for resale. Mostly lathes, huge drill presses, and milling machines. Not only bringing them back into spec. but adding optical (Bausch&Lomb?) precision measuring with electronic readouts to them. Didn't quite make it to CNC but upgraded from stock mechanical vernier scales.
 

Wolframore

Joined Jan 21, 2019
2,609
Be careful with CNC. A friend spent about 10k to automate a larger grizzly lathe it has so many issues and can no longer be operated manually. It loses its position and when you hit home it can run into things because it travels diagonally... just few of the issues. If you go CNC go all the way and get a Haas or similar. Glass scale read outs on the other hand are handy.
 

jpanhalt

Joined Jan 18, 2008
11,087
That's one reason I have not modified my Bridgeport knock-off (Supermax) yet. I read that they do have problems when retrofitted with ballscrews for CNC. The movement is so smooth that manual milling becomes a problem. And, I do enjoy the exercise of manually turning chips. I do have 3-axis DRO, which is a great help as your memory gets worse.
 

JoeJester

Joined Apr 26, 2005
4,390
The part failed because it was rated for only 106% of normal expected operation. Would you use a 1 watt resistor for a circuit drawing 940mW through that resistor? Probably not. I consider the 106% thing an engineered obsolescence.
Most do. So, maybe their engineering error would make a separate thread and you might be able to help someone else save some cash.

Your max time of 2 - 3 hours close to over 60% of their estimate; at a $100 per hour shop hourly rate and you didn't realize any profit on the part.

Yes, I know you wouldn't charge your MIL. The personal relationship wasn't part of the equation with respect to the Shop Estimate.

Neither you or I know the specifics of that repair shop's expenses, so this was an exercise in speculation.

It's nice to see your labor time was consistent with their labor charges.

Attached is a 1978 article from Electronics Technician. Although the catagories in their example reflected the electronics shops of the day, the expense titles remain consistent as an example with today's ventures.
 

Attachments

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
6,782
No one is stopping anyone from repairing anything.
Respectfully, you are wrong.
That being said, a number of complaints are about the manufacturer not providing the documentation to do such repairs.
It is more than that. There are OEMs going out of their way to prevent you doing repairs. Why does a wheel bearing need an embedded RFID tag? The tag is scanned by the onboard computer at power-up and the tractor will not turn on if the s/n of the wheel bearing does not match what is stored in its encrypted database. Even if you buy an authentic JD wheel bearing. The tractor will not run until a JD technician with proprietary JD software comes onsite and gives the tractor permission to accept thd new bearing and turn on. Why does a wheel bearing need an RFID tag if No one is stopping anyone from repairing anything?

The John Deere and iPhone examples are getting a bit old I'm sure, but they are titans of their industries and they're going to set the trend. This will be the new normal if we don't put a stop to it.
 

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
6,782
Pretty soon I'm going to have to buy a small lathe (which I plan to later retrofit with one of my CNC controls) and I'm going to have to learn how to make proper cutting tools for it. Your advice about having a good grinder is invaluable. Thanks for posting.
WHAT? You don't already have a lathe? I would have guessed you had several of them.

Well, better late than never. Congrats on the lathe(s) I'm sure you will own soon!
 

Wolframore

Joined Jan 21, 2019
2,609
I’m sure Apple is the one getting the $200 Chinese phones from working in our market. If we figured out how much we‘re overpaying for something they make obsolescent, the class action suit never even phased them... they Wouldn’t be able to get $1000 from us for phones every 2 or 3 years. Yeah dead horse but JD and Apple are thugs.

if we’re banning Chinese made phone. Oh guess what iPhones are made in China. They have been since the start.
 

JoeJester

Joined Apr 26, 2005
4,390
@stantor Someone will hack those computers in due time. The authorized mechanics need to be able to reset the ID when they replace anything with an RFID.
 
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