<....SNIP.....> If a company like John Deere can't maintain control over a device in the field, they can't possibly offer the same warranty. They'd end up covering the work and parts of third parties, and that won't happen <....SNIP.....>

I really don't think this is a real problem. Companies have been denying warranty claims on things that have been repaired by non-authorized people for years, it will just be more of the same.

 

I've been meaning to ask, should I buy a Ford, GM, or Ram truck? They all cost the same, have the same warranty, same features, same specs, and come in the same colors. I kinda like the Ram logo, but the Ford headlights look better.

Just my opinion ,but your better off going GM. Ask #12 about Ford, you think JD is bad, Ford trucks/cars are just like that, any main thing you need to replace has to be set up/flashed by the dealer to work.Everything has a computer attached in them. Do you want a truck bed floor and walls made from aluminum? Not if using it as a truck.

GM has not gone that far yet. Many parts interchange between both models and even brands.

 

Just my opinion ,but your better off going GM. Ask #12 about Ford, you think JD is bad, Ford trucks/cars are just like that, any main thing you need to replace has to be set up/flashed by the dealer to work.Everything has a computer attached in them.

Now see I read something contradictory to that. I don't remember where I read it, and I struggle to come up with any buzzwords to google, but I remember reading that Ford was taking steps to make it easier for the average Joe to interface with their computer-controlled cars, while everyone else is trying to lock theirs down. I don't remember any specifics; I just remember thinking "finally, someone is reading the market and trying to treat the customers like teammates instead of opponents."

Do you want a truck bed floor and walls made from aluminum? Not if using it as a truck.

Absolutely not. My friend has a new F150 and I always give him hell about that. Last time he came over I brought the kids out in front of him and drew an imaginary boundary around his truck and gave the kids a speech: "alright kids, now listen up. You see this truck? It's made of recycled soda cans and it's very fragile. You're not allowed within 15ft of it because if you sneeze your boogers might put dents in it...."

 

The Nissan Titan takes third place in the American-made rankings. Only 59% of the Titan's parts are actually made in America. ... That's right…the Toyota Tundra is the most American-made pickup of the bunch! With a whopping 73.5% of its parts made in the USA, including its engine and transmission, the Tundra tops our list.

The Tundra is now designed in Newport Beach, California, engineered in Ann Arbor, Michigan, its engine is built in Huntsville, Alabama and then the final assembly takes place at the Toyota Motor Manufacturing facility in San Antonio, Texas. You heard right, Texas.

I have a 2007 Ford F-150. It is popular, but has had a lot of problems. My mechanic bought a RAM equivalent and feels it is even worse. He is a dragster builder and driver. I have not had an equivalent Chevy truck. However, on advice of a friend in 1984 who said that Ford trucks rust from the bottom up and Chevy's rust less and more uniformly, I got a new 1984 S-10 long bed, 4 speed with the small V6. It is still running strong. Negligible rust. I gave it to my oldest grandson when he turned 16. We drove it to Virginia together. He has done a little detail work on it, including the Chevy logo on the tailgate. Looks fantastic.

Only complaint I have heard is that his dad would rather drive that truck than his much newer GMC SUV.

I would also consider the Toyota. How many Chevy's do you see with mounted machine guns in the Middle East war zones? I drove one before I bought my F-150 and did not like the cooped-in feeling and visibility from the driver's seat. Otherwise, I think it is a pretty good light truck.

 

I have a 2007 Ford F-150. It is popular, but has had a lot of problems. My mechanic bought a RAM equivalent and feels it is even worse. He is a dragster builder and driver. I have not had an equivalent Chevy truck. However, on advice of a friend in 1984 who said that Ford trucks rust from the bottom up and Chevy's rust less and more uniformly, I got a new 1984 S-10 long bed, 4 speed with the small V6. It is still running strong. Negligible rust. I gave it to my oldest grandson when he turned 16. We drove it to Virginia together. He has done a little detail work on it, including the Chevy logo on the tailgate. Looks fantastic.

Only complaint I have heard is that his dad would rather drive that truck than his much newer GMC SUV.

I would also consider the Toyota. How many Chevy's do you see with mounted machine guns in the Middle East war zones? I drove one before I bought my F-150 and did not like the cooped-in feeling and visibility from the driver's seat. Otherwise, I think it is a pretty good light truck.

If I wanted a 1/2 ton truck I would be looking hard at Toyota. They need to make a 3/4 ton and a 1-ton version.

 

Taco owner here. Second one. Back in 2002 I bought a brand new Chevy S10 and drove the snot out of it. However, I put 80,000 miles on the factory original tires before I changed them. The warning bars were just beginning to be level with the treads. At 50,000 I put new brake pads. At 135,000 the fuel pump went and that's when I traded it in for a used Tacoma, an 08; four banger. Loved the truck but didn't like the lack of power. Last year I bought a hold-over from 2017 Taco - brand new; six banger, six speed automatic with everything except active cruise control, y'know, where if you're in front of me and slow down my truck will slow down too. That's the only thing I don't have. No problem. Probably better that it keeps me focused on the road. Otherwise if it did that and could steer itself I'd be napping in the back seat.

My wife had an 89 Celica. Drove that all over the place. Well over 200,000 before she crashed it. Put her in a Hyundai Sonata for a few years but then put her back into an 09 Toyota Venza, all wheel drive. Thing goes through everything without problems. All I have to do is keep good tires on it. She's hard on cars though. Gas and brake pedals, she treats them like light switches. Binary - 1 & 0. On and Off. For a while she was in the van pool and nobody wanted her to drive. Only driver on the road who could give whiplash to her passengers. She's wanting a Veloster but I resist. It's too small and zippy. She'll get hurt in it. Her 89; I was getting to the point where I was spending more time under the hood than in the driver seat. I was glad she didn't hurt anyone or get hurt, but I was also glad she wrecked the car. It was the only way to get her out of it. Oh well. Cars today are much more difficult to troubleshoot and repair.

 

@strantor Came across this video. It's less than 12 minutes long:

If a company like John Deere can't maintain control over a device in the field, they can't possibly offer the same warranty.

I would have to say that if something is under warranty then why would you want to hack-fix it? Under warranty means you're not going to have to pay for the repair or the part. Nevertheless, after viewing that video I can understand how frustrating it is to own a tractor that is 60, 70 or even 80 years old and you can easily fix it but a brand new (just out of warranty) tractor can be impossible to fix without "Permission" from the manufacturer.

 

I would have to say that if something is under warranty then why would you want to hack-fix it?

True, but the manufacturer continues to bear some liability for the behavior of a product even beyond the expiration of the warranty. Many warranties are laughably short compared to the useful life of the object. Companies get sued years later and thus would prefer to maintain control as long as possible.

I'm not trying to justify the behaviors that are designed to sell new products by premature obsolescence of the old model. That bugs the crap out of me. I'm saying I'm sensitive the fact that companies have to react to the environment they're in including the legal and regulatory issues they have to try to manage. Some of the goofiness we see in the market is a response to goofy laws and regulations.

 

@wayneh You make a good point. I guess I'd be upset if I sold you a spaceship capable of flying to Jupiter and back in 3 hours, and if on the way you decided to sup up the engines and try to make it in under 2 hours, blow something up, damage Mars along the way and you want to sue me for a defective product, unless I can PROVE you monkeyed with it - I may be on the hook for damages.

That tears it! NOBODY is getting my blueprints!

 

Now see I read something contradictory to that. I don't remember where I read it, and I struggle to come up with any buzzwords to google, but I remember reading that Ford was taking steps to make it easier for the average Joe to interface with their computer-controlled cars, while everyone else is trying to lock theirs down.

My oldest grandson is a journeyman electrician. The company he works for bought him an 2018 Ford van to replace the old, old Chevy he was driving. The Chevy just need to have normal maintenance over it's life nothing major.

The new Ford, 2 weeks into its life had the right rear turn signal stop working. Being electricians they thought just a bulb, but they are Led panels now. So they take it to the dealership. The dealer had to pull out the entire dash board to get at the computerized module for the right rear signal. There are four of the modules, one for each light! Long story short, the dealership had to order a new module, and then they found out they had to also buy a"master programmer", because each module only works when it has certain information dealing with the VIN for that vehicle! The dealership had the new van for 3 weeks because the parts and programmer weren't in the system yet. Now the new van rattles because the clips holding the dash in place were damaged, he stuck little slips of cardboard in some places to keep it quiet.

So if things like this mean that the average Joe that buys a used older vehicle can fix it himself , your thinking is different than mine.

 

each module only works when it has certain information dealing with the VIN for that vehicle!

Well, if we look on the bright side, this may cut down on vehicle theft. Nobody's going to steal my tail lights because you have to take it to the dealership to program it. Have the dash ripped apart and put back together with the potential for rattles.

Those kids at the dealership are just kids at the dealership. They may be SAE certified but all that means is they passed a written test. They may have no practical experience or even hand-eye skilled bases for working on cars. I took a van to a brake shop. When I got the van back I tested the emergency brake. It locked down nice for an instant then went pop and went all the way to the floor. I refused to take the van but my boss insisted because the proprietor said there was nothing wrong with the brakes. Less than a thousand miles later the brake assembly came apart inside the brake drum and destroyed everything. I tried to remove the tire to investigate but I got one lug nut loose (out of five), broke two studs trying to loosen them and BENT my tire iron on a fourth. Called a tow truck. The garage I went to said the spreader bar was not properly installed, came loose, jammed and spun around inside the drum destroying everything. The van ended up needing a new rear axel. THAT is what a professional did. So when someone says they're "Professional" or "SAE Certified", I remember that account and will still argue with them if I think I'm right.

 

Well, if we look on the bright side, this may cut down on vehicle theft. Nobody's going to steal my tail lights because you have to take it to the dealership to program it. Have the dash ripped apart and put back together with the potential for rattles.

That's what I tell people the "modified" (aka broken) interior handle on the driver's side of my 2012 Fusion is for. My theory is, if I am ever hijacked, I can hop out and the hijacker will be stuck in the driver's seat, unless he knows the secret way to open the door. Not even the dealership knew the trick. Of course, it broke right after the warranty expired.

@shortbus
Stock prices can change for many reasons, but Ford's has dropped by almost 50% from 3 years ago, even though it survived the market crash of 2008/2009 in good shape. I wonder whether its engineering errors , such as the disastrous spark plugs and other problems on Triton engines are adding up in the public's opinion.

 

I miss the good old days when the car did not start. You opened the hood and drizzled a tablespoon full of gasoline down the carburetor and cranked it. If it fired up for a second or two you knew you had a fuel delivery issue AND that timing and ignition were good. If it didn't start you pulled a spark plug wire and checked for a spark. If there was none you knew you had an ignition issue. If it sparked you knew you had a timing issue. That was ALL the diagnostics needed on my 72 Chevy Nova.

Then they started with all the sensors and OBDI (On Board Diagnostics ONE). Now you either had to hook up to a computer or put a jumper on a plug and go count the number of flashes of the CEL (Check Engine Light). Look up in the owners manual what the code meant and then you had a beginning of understanding what might be at issue. OBDII (OBD TWO) came along and made things universal (and a little better) but you still either needed a code reader or go an automotive parts store and ask them to read the OBDII code(s).

Things are even more complex now. You not only have ECU's (PCM's and the likes) you also have BCM's (Body Control Modules) that control things like exterior lighting. Cars have gotten way over my head with all the sensorama going on. Now I own and drive till problems start developing. Trade in and start over.

 

Things are even more complex now. You not only have ECU's (PCM's and the likes) you also have BCM's (Body Control Modules) that control things like exterior lighting. Cars have gotten way over my head with all the sensorama going on. Now I own and drive till problems start developing. Trade in and start over.

No kidding. Even my 2003 had computers in the transmission, body, engine, and key system that were all capable of immobilizing the vehicle. So you're driving along and everything goes dead. Your chances of a roadside repair are virtually nil.

The only thing that saved my bacon several times was the vast experience of others - the internet. Just about every problem I encountered had been experienced by hundreds and fixed by tens of previous owners, who even took the time to write up the fixes and post videos. New cars are great but you don't have the same pool of knowledge out there.

 

Well, if we look on the bright side, this may cut down on vehicle theft. Nobody's going to steal my tail lights because you have to take it to the dealership to program it

No, the tail lights will work on their car. It was/is the turn signal module/computer that needs programming. They don't have a signal flasher can any more. And each corner of the vehicle has one, not one doing all of them.

 

@shortbus: Was making an example.

I had a Ford Granada. Darn thing was complicated to work on. I used to swear you had to remove the back bumper just to be able to change the headlights. An exaggeration for sure, but didn't feel like it when you had to remove the battery and other stuff just so you could get at the screws to remove the headlight unit so you could replace the bulb.

 

I had a Ford Granada. Darn thing was complicated to work on.

That's why I switched to GM vehicles. When in earlier times I was a Ford man. They unnecessarily made things overly complicated. And it was just dumb stuff like the transmission from a 289 Windsor engine not fitting a 289 Cleveland engine. Whereas GM/Chevy, up until the front wheel drive stuff, a 4 cyl, 6 cyl small V8 or big block all shared the same bolt pattern.

 

My oldest grandson is a journeyman electrician. The company he works for bought him an 2018 Ford van to replace the old, old Chevy he was driving. The Chevy just need to have normal maintenance over it's life nothing major.

The new Ford, 2 weeks into its life had the right rear turn signal stop working. Being electricians they thought just a bulb, but they are Led panels now. So they take it to the dealership. The dealer had to pull out the entire dash board to get at the computerized module for the right rear signal. There are four of the modules, one for each light! Long story short, the dealership had to order a new module, and then they found out they had to also buy a"master programmer", because each module only works when it has certain information dealing with the VIN for that vehicle! The dealership had the new van for 3 weeks because the parts and programmer weren't in the system yet. Now the new van rattles because the clips holding the dash in place were damaged, he stuck little slips of cardboard in some places to keep it quiet.

So if things like this mean that the average Joe that buys a used older vehicle can fix it himself , your thinking is different than mine.

I hear ya. The vehicles are becoming more complicated (overly complicated in many, dare I say most, cases). Even Ford. There's no logical reason I can see from where I sit, for the scenario you described.

But I did remember what it was I was thinking of. It's Ford's OpenXC platform, which is an open source hardware & software API for interfacing with & programming Ford vehicles. It makes available way more data than typical generic OBD-II protocol and you can get access to the car's data with a few bucks worth of stuff from sparkfun. We're talking about the data that, with other automakers, is on proprietary busses in proprietary format, and in lots of cases, encrypted. The data that requires a $5,000+ dealer-level scanner to access. Ford is making it all documented, published, and available to the tinkerer to develop tools around it. While that might not be immediately useful to the average Joe for troubleshooting (contrary to what I said, sorry), it does make Ford more appealing to me as a nerd. And hopefully it will spawn a bunch of affordable tools, designed by similar nerds, to offer dealer-level troubleshooting capabilities to average Joes in the near future.

 

It's Ford's OpenXC platform, which is an open source hardware & software API for interfacing with & programming Ford vehicles. It makes available way more data than typical generic OBD-II protocol and you can get access to the car's data with a few bucks worth of stuff from sparkfun. We're talking about the data that, with other automakers, is on proprietary busses in proprietary format, and in lots of cases, encrypted. The data that requires a $5,000+ dealer-level scanner to access. Ford is making it all documented, published, and available to the tinkerer to develop tools around it.

That's very interesting and sounds like a very good step in the right direction. I wonder if they hope to increase security by going that route, just as open source Unix has taken over in the server world. It might also lead to faster innovation by letting the Ford nerds of the world produce apps. Tesla's code is open source, isn't it? Maybe not all of it.

 

The thing that mildly concerns me about all the technology in cars is that now they can be hacked. Standard steering meant the driver had to be strong enough to turn the wheels to guide the car. Then came power steering with hydraulics. That was great until you blew a hose because some young dumb hotrodder decided to put headers on the V-8, the heat from which would burn the hose until it burst. NOW they have electronic steering; which can be hacked. Imagine driving down the road and someone behind you hacked into your vehicle (I have no idea how they'd know which vehicle they had) and cause you to make a left turn into on-coming traffic. Granted, there's not a lot of usefulness to hacking automobiles, at least none I can recognize at present. But the thought that someone could access my electronic transmission control unit and make the car shift into a low gear and over-speed the engine and blow it up. Or, if possible, throw it into reverse at highway speeds causing the guts to be ripped out of your car.

Hack a driverless car and make it lock the doors and take the passenger to some undesired location where they can be harmed. Geez! I'm starting to get a real twisted mind.

The point is - we now have smart phones that have way more computing power than the astronauts that went to the moon. Our lives have become so dependent on technology it has opened us up to identity theft, bank accounts being emptied and who knows what else. While cars are more efficient and pollute less, I still like the idea of a car that I am in complete control of at all times. A computer to control the engine - I'm fine with that. The rest - leave that to me to know how to repair. I don't need sensors that sense when sensors go bad.

Horse and buggy? Quaint. But with all the traffic - there's going to be a lot of manure in the streets. But at least nobody can hack a horse. Can they? "Horse Hacking". Now THERE's a law for the books.