Hey Tony, here hold my beer while I load my gun.

Ron

More like "hold my bear". They were all in danger.

 

More like "hold my bear". They were all in danger.

Every now and then a video like that comes along leaving one to wonder are some people actually that stupid. I guess the video is proof positive the answer is yes. While I ran the video my wife glanced over from her computer, caught the video and asked what did he expect to happen? Let's make a huge pile of wood for a bonfire. Let's pour a few gallons of gasoline on it. now lets ignite it. Nobody watching suggested that this just may not be a good idea?

Man Almost Killed After Shooting Fridge Filled With Tannerite

Authorities say a man in Georgia who was filmed shooting at a lawn mower filled with explosives lost his leg when the machine exploded.

Thus, hold my beer while I load my gun. Wait, let me make a gigantic hand grenade and shoot it.

We can now resume solar cells discussion and their viability.

Ron

 

That video, gasoline is not an effective way to start a campfire.

Agreed. The problem here is people thinking of good ways to start something without considering the consequences. Gasoline vapors spreading along the ground? When I was young and dumb (not young anymore) I might have even done the same thing. In fact, I put a little gasoline (couple tablespoons full in a 25 gallon barrel with a 3/4 inch bung and a 3 inch bung) lit a match and dropped it in. The result was an impressive 3 foot blue flame out the larger bung. The potential consequences? Catastrophic failure of the barrel could have amputated my head from my body. Stupidity runs hand in hand with inexperience whereas wisdom is something gained with experience of age (provided we survive our stupid periods) and in listening to others thoughts on matters.

Basically what I'm saying is, your not wrong, but.

I agree. Again, showing the consequences of not thinking things through to their full conclusions.

It is not reasonable to call the use of energy an addiction. That is propaganda designed to elicit a negative emotion. The use of energy to make life more comfortable and more productive is not a bad thing.

I grew up in California. Los Angeles area to be exact. I remember driving down the highway with my 4/40 air conditioner. That is to roll down all four windows and drive down the road at 40 miles per hour. There have been studies to argue the point whether driving with all the windows up and using AC versus the 4/40 method. It SEEMS to say that driving is more energy efficient with the windows up and the AC on than having all the windows rolled down. But I'm not here to make that argument, I'm just siting it as a potential discussion for which may be better. I personally have not done such a study, nor am I sure of how to go about it in a controlled manor. Driving from Wisconsin to Utah, my truck got 13 MPG going against the headwind trying to maintain 80 MPH, whereas I could get over 17 MPG keeping the speed down to 70 MPH. However, I'm not sure how much that was due to the weather (prevailing wind and wind speed - hence, the idea to study the air pressure at the nose of the truck at various speeds as well as how much vacuum at the rear).

What this all comes down to - my opinion here - is that there are just too many humans on earth. We continue to use up the natural resources, alter our environment and change the conditions within which we live. We also protect the stupid with warning labels, protecting them from themselves so they can grow old and hopefully gain some practical wisdom. I avoid the term "Common sense" because - again, an opinion here - common sense is just the level of sensibility common among your contemporaries. So if you hang around idiots - - - ! Get the point?

Solar panels provide a relief for energy needs. Problems that go along with it are such things as loss of radiative cooling (reflecting sunlight energy back into space) (which I agree with) versus the surplus of energy and storage of that energy. Overproduction of energy can lead to an overproduction of potential heat. Someone said "Catch 22" and I agree. Discussions like ours may eventually lead to a wise and reasonable solution to the problem. However, in my opinion the biggest problem is man himself.

 

Agreed. The problem here is people thinking of good ways to start something without considering the consequences. Gasoline vapors spreading along the ground? When I was young and dumb (not young anymore) I might have even done the same thing. In fact, I put a little gasoline (couple tablespoons full in a 25 gallon barrel with a 3/4 inch bung and a 3 inch bung) lit a match and dropped it in. The result was an impressive 3 foot blue flame out the larger bung. The potential consequences? Catastrophic failure of the barrel could have amputated my head from my body. Stupidity runs hand in hand with inexperience whereas wisdom is something gained with experience of age (provided we survive our stupid periods) and in listening to others thoughts on matters.

I agree. Again, showing the consequences of not thinking things through to their full conclusions.

I grew up in California. Los Angeles area to be exact. I remember driving down the highway with my 4/40 air conditioner. That is to roll down all four windows and drive down the road at 40 miles per hour. There have been studies to argue the point whether driving with all the windows up and using AC versus the 4/40 method. It SEEMS to say that driving is more energy efficient with the windows up and the AC on than having all the windows rolled down. But I'm not here to make that argument, I'm just siting it as a potential discussion for which may be better. I personally have not done such a study, nor am I sure of how to go about it in a controlled manor. Driving from Wisconsin to Utah, my truck got 13 MPG going against the headwind trying to maintain 80 MPH, whereas I could get over 17 MPG keeping the speed down to 70 MPH. However, I'm not sure how much that was due to the weather (prevailing wind and wind speed - hence, the idea to study the air pressure at the nose of the truck at various speeds as well as how much vacuum at the rear).

What this all comes down to - my opinion here - is that there are just too many humans on earth. We continue to use up the natural resources, alter our environment and change the conditions within which we live. We also protect the stupid with warning labels, protecting them from themselves so they can grow old and hopefully gain some practical wisdom. I avoid the term "Common sense" because - again, an opinion here - common sense is just the level of sensibility common among your contemporaries. So if you hang around idiots - - - ! Get the point?

Solar panels provide a relief for energy needs. Problems that go along with it are such things as loss of radiative cooling (reflecting sunlight energy back into space) (which I agree with) versus the surplus of energy and storage of that energy. Overproduction of energy can lead to an overproduction of potential heat. Someone said "Catch 22" and I agree. Discussions like ours may eventually lead to a wise and reasonable solution to the problem. However, in my opinion the biggest problem is man himself.

Hi,

Sounds like some good insight there.

Cant beat the numbers when it comes to population control. Two people lead to four people lead to 16 people then two people die but that still leaves 14 people or so.

 

What this all comes down to - my opinion here - is that there are just too many humans on earth.

Yep. We just need a good old-fashioned nuclear war to save the planet.

(Repost from here.)

 

Step out onto a plowed black dirt fields in northern Minnesota in mid January and you will not feel much heat, even if the sky is perfectly clear. I am not sure if it is warmer than the snow covered ground would be or not.
Now with the power provided by solar cell farms being transported to other locations, probably if is just a transfer, since no energy is created, it is only moved. So it might actually be making the areas around the solar cell farms cooler. Does that matter?? I don't think so.

I think that this thread has wandered farther than most threads wander.

 

Step out onto a plowed black dirt fields in northern Minnesota in mid January and you will not feel much heat, even if the sky is perfectly clear. I am not sure if it is warmer than the snow covered ground would be or not.
Now with the power provided by solar cell farms being transported to other locations, probably if is just a transfer, since no energy is created, it is only moved. So it might actually be making the areas around the solar cell farms cooler. Does that matter?? I don't think so.

I think that this thread has wandered farther than most threads wander.

Hi,

It's a very well known fact that dark colors reflect less than light colors. That's one reason why they sell those specially made white shingles.
The darker colors absorb the energy and convert it to heat, while the light colors absorb some but reflect more.
You may not feel the difference unless you put your hand the ground, but you could sprinkle some snow on the dirt and sprinkle some on top of a pure white shingle and see which one melts first.
I see this happen by itself every winter. In the driveway before it is shoveled at all the snow does not melt. Once it is shoveled, you can see the snow near the edges melting.
You can also look up the difference between colors on the web, and look up the difference between the light and dark colored shingles.
Sometimes the ground actually feels warm to the touch. The dark asphalt road surface sometimes feels warm in the sun.
Flat black is best for solar heating pipes that are exposed to the sun for water heating.

 

Well we crash the economy on a regular bases why not the environment as well since we are supersmart about doing our thing.

 

I think that this thread has wandered farther than most threads wander.

What have we got so far.
1. Solar Panels don't pay off! No good argument they do.
2. White reflects heat.
3. People are stupid.
4. there are to many people.
5. Cities are warmer because of white roofs. Got nothing to do with the black roads.

Moderator shut this........ what ever it has turned into down. Please! Better yet erase it.

 

What have we got so far.
1. Solar Panels don't pay off! No good argument they do.
2. White reflects heat.
3. People are stupid.
4. there are to many people.
5. Cities are warmer because of white roofs. Got nothing to do with the black roads.

Moderator shut this........ what ever it has turned into down. Please! Better yet erase it.

Hello,

What's your problem? Cant stand a good discussion or something? How about you just not reply anymore, how about that?

Who said cities are warmer because of white roofs?
You can get rebate in some areas by using white shingles.

 

Up at the top, just below "Watched Threads" there's an "Unwatch Thread". Click that if you no longer want to receive e-mail telling you there's a new comment or someone quoted your post.

Yes, it has gotten off topic. Sort of. But the original question or comment was about "Solar Power Does Not Pay Off • • • ." The comments you've gotten have been about how and why different strategies work or don't work. Including, but a bit off topic, white reflecting solar energy versus brown absorbing energy. Energy from the sun. So a bit off topic but not totally unrelated.

So if you no longer wish to be a part of this discussion then just unwatch it.

 

Hi,

It's a very well known fact that dark colors reflect less than light colors. That's one reason why they sell those specially made white shingles.
The darker colors absorb the energy and convert it to heat, while the light colors absorb some but reflect more.
You may not feel the difference unless you put your hand the ground, but you could sprinkle some snow on the dirt and sprinkle some on top of a pure white shingle and see which one melts first.
I see this happen by itself every winter. In the driveway before it is shoveled at all the snow does not melt. Once it is shoveled, you can see the snow near the edges melting.
You can also look up the difference between colors on the web, and look up the difference between the light and dark colored shingles.
Sometimes the ground actually feels warm to the touch. The dark asphalt road surface sometimes feels warm in the sun.
Flat black is best for solar heating pipes that are exposed to the sun for water heating.

When I was a kid I did one of my science fair projects based on how colors reflect light. I called it SOC (Sounds Of Color). Guessing I was about 12 so maybe 62. I set a small incandescent lamp (flashlight bulb) in a block of Plexiglas and did likewise with a small CDS photo cell. I angled the light beam to reflect off a wheel I placed different colors of construction paper. The photo cell was part of the frequency control of a two transistor audio oscillator. Things worked well but I had to place good contrasting colors like black and whits side by side or it was hard to discern the differences in the audio oscillator frequency.

Back to solar panels. I see them as worth or not worth the investment depending on location. Now through around April here in NE Ohio it is cold but also plenty of overcast a gray skies. We also just had the winter solstice so slowly we will see more daylight but about now, good luck getting much of anything from solar panels. Now wind we do have, just not much sunlight to speak of. I think we are expecting snow on Wednesday. Anyway, as to renewable energy you would likely fare much better around this geographical area with wind than solar on a year round basis.

Ron

 

@WBahn, I dug out some old pre solar data which is pre new air conditioner & multi-pain windows which shows annual average of $ 99 / mo. Solar CO inflated this to $ 110 / mo. for their 20 yr. projection which shows a 20 year savings of $ 33,162. A % 6 inflation was used. All lies, I have no idea when $ 10,000 will be recovered, just that my monthly bill is about $ 7.

 

Interesting about RR's science fair project. I hope it won something.
As for the benefits of solar power collection, just like a lot of other things, location matters. In a rain-forest a water-wheel generator might be a better idea, while in some areas along the ocean collecting wave power would make more sense. All of that collected power ultimately comes from the sun, but in different forms in different areas. Probably fixed-array solar cells have the least need for servicing, unless they get dusty, and so the question is always cost versus benefit. For the off-grid folks solar makes a lot of sense, unless they live near a serious stream of flowing water. And the issue about shingle color and reflectivity probably depends on location just as much.
The fact that I may not agree with everybody all the time does not mean that they should not talk, unless they get so bad that they are barred from posting, and that is not my call anyway. So it is fine to unfollow a conversation that one finds useless. That is why that option exists, I think.

 

Interesting about RR's science fair project. I hope it won something.

Won my school that year and managed 3rd at the diocese level. It was parochial school.

Thanks
Ron

 

When I was a kid I did one of my science fair projects based on how colors reflect light. I called it SOC (Sounds Of Color). Guessing I was about 12 so maybe 62. I set a small incandescent lamp (flashlight bulb) in a block of Plexiglas and did likewise with a small CDS photo cell. I angled the light beam to reflect off a wheel I placed different colors of construction paper. The photo cell was part of the frequency control of a two transistor audio oscillator. Things worked well but I had to place good contrasting colors like black and whits side by side or it was hard to discern the differences in the audio oscillator frequency.

Back to solar panels. I see them as worth or not worth the investment depending on location. Now through around April here in NE Ohio it is cold but also plenty of overcast a gray skies. We also just had the winter solstice so slowly we will see more daylight but about now, good luck getting much of anything from solar panels. Now wind we do have, just not much sunlight to speak of. I think we are expecting snow on Wednesday. Anyway, as to renewable energy you would likely fare much better around this geographical area with wind than solar on a year round basis.

Ron

Hi,

That's a nice experiment but it's so much simpler than that when trying to find out the difference in temperature and the difference is large enough to be of concern i assure you.

All you have to do is place a high reflectance white shingle next to a black shingle. Let them sit in direct overhead sunlight. The white one will feel cool to the touch but in some cases you wont even want to keep your hand on the black one.

When the roof was being done here, i looked up attic temperatures with white and black shingles and the difference was quoted as around 15 degrees C. That is very significant when trying to cool down with an AC unit in the summer.
Im sure this info is still online just have to look for it.

I think measuring the reflectance is harder to do vs measuring then temperature. The temperature is dependent on all the colors in actual sunlight too not just an incandescent bulb.

Here's an even nicer experiment:
Place a black sheet of some kind (maybe a garbage bag) on top of white snow in the middle of the yard. Next day maybe after bright sunlight for a day see how much more the snow underneath has melted.

Wasnt there also a trend for local road services to use black salt and/or black sand? I'd have to look this up again though as it's been years now

I personally guarantee you that if you find an experiment that shows that the temperature rise for white is the same for black in direct sunlight, it is wrong.
Also, keep in mind the insolation level near the surface of the earth is approximately 1000 watts per square meter. A 100 watt light bulb probably puts out 0.001 of that at a distance of 1 meter

There are other experiments we can do with a high powered LED flashlight.

 

you would likely fare much better around this geographical area with wind than solar on a year round basis.

Going to and coming from Wisconsin to Utah I saw lots of wind farms along Interstate 80/84. Did some driving up on i90 as well and saw a good number of wind farms there as well. Yes, geographic location makes all the difference in dictating what form of green energy you opt for. In canyons the winds can get quite strong, and during winter times the sun may at times not reach all the way down to the bottoms of canyons. But wind is not the reliable source there either. Sure, you can get a lot of wind on days, but on many other days the canyons can be quite still. Best bet there, since there's often a river flowing at the lowest points would be hydro-electric. In the Yellowstone area, Geo-Thermal is a good option, provided you pick a spot close to a magma chamber. But we can't all live on top of a magma chamber. Actually, I don't think I'd want to - although, in reality, we ALL live above magma.

I would imagine that on the west coast you could depend on a fairly steady breeze. Given that and the moist air, a dehumidifier (industrial size) (solar/wind powered) could (maybe) provide drinking water by pulling the moisture out of the ocean air. But you can't do that in Utah. So where you live dictates what methods of power generation would be best suited to the region.

Drilling for natural gas - - - that depends on whether you're over a deposit or not. If not - - - .

 

Here's an even nicer experiment:
Place a black sheet of some kind (maybe a garbage bag) on top of white snow in the middle of the yard. Next day maybe after bright sunlight for a day see how much more the snow underneath has melted.

Saw an experiment done in Greenland (I think it was). They took a sheet of highly reflective white plastic, somewhere around the size of half a football field and placed it over a snow field. A few days later they returned, not sure how many days, they removed the cover and found the snow under the reflective sheet sat a good number of inches above the surrounding snow. Clearly the cover prevented sunlight from melting the snow. The sheet was pure white whereas the snow was dusty and dirty, and therefore absorbed more energy from the sun. Saw that on PBS I believe.

 

Hi,

It is hoped that before the sun expands we will have acquired the ability to control stars and planets.

But back to the main point of solar panels...
There is a bill in congress right now or there will be in a couple of days that suggests that the entire USA becomes independent of fossil fuels. That means technologies like solar panels. If it passes, the effect will be that the entire US has to convert by maybe 2030.

So is that before or after the federally-mandated switch to the metric system?

 

There is a bill in congress right now or there will be in a couple of days that suggests that the entire USA becomes independent of fossil fuels. That means technologies like solar panels. If it passes, the effect will be that the entire US has to convert by maybe 2030.

Something I mentioned in the beginning of this thread and mention in just about every thread dealing with renewable energy is you can have just about anything you want as long as you are willing to pay for it. Solar panels have come down in cost and hopefully will continue to drop. The bottom line comes down to what we pay per kilowatt hour.

Hawaii having no natural resources has the highest cost in the US. Germany had made large steps towards renewable energy sources and has the highest cost of electricity in Europe. Here in the US those states making a big push for renewable energy seem to reflect their efforts in the cost of electricity. The best deal going is likely hydro-electric but every state is not blessed with rivers which are capable of supporting hydro-electric. So again, we can have whatever we want as long as we are willing to foot the bill.

Ron