And right there is the problem with installing panels in a urban enviroment. It is already expensive enough to replace a roof. Can you imagine the cost when solar panels are involved? I would imagine the panels would help protect the roof and extend its life but it is still going to need to be replaced someday.

Panels really only work well when they can be placed at ground level where they can be easily maintained.

I noticed when we were in America, the roof materials were quite different to here in Australia. Our house has terracotta tiles, and that is the normal roofing materiel. Otherwise it would be galvanized or colourbond steel. The type of shingle or foil roofing we saw there would not pass building regs here, so having to replace the roof every 10 years or so is unknown here.
On the other hand, the insulation there was much better than most houses here. Double and triple glazing is almost unheard of here.

 

I found a couple more pictures...

 

I noticed when we were in America, the roof materials were quite different to here in Australia. Our house has terracotta tiles, and that is the normal roofing materiel. Otherwise it would be galvanized or colourbond steel. The type of shingle or foil roofing we saw there would not pass building regs here, so having to replace the roof every 10 years or so is unknown here.
On the other hand, the insulation there was much better than most houses here. Double and triple glazing is almost unheard of here.

Roofing in the US is regional. We have many terracotta roofs depending on the region. Steel is staring to catch on in various parts of the country. Shale used to be very big. I crew up in a shale roof home.

 

Can you imagine the cost when solar panels are involved?

No I can't ! More than I can imagine times 2.
All my panels are on the Metal carport, sheds, or ground, would not even think about the house roof.

 

The type of shingle or foil roofing we saw there would not pass building regs here, so having to replace the roof every 10 years or so is unknown here.

Ten years? Composite shingles, often called asphalt shingles, are the most popular type of roofing material around. These three-tab shingles are made of fiberglass mat topped with asphalt and mineral granules. An all-around good choice for most home roofing needs, composite shingles typically come with 20- to 30-year warranties. That 20 to 30 years is average and composite or asphalt shingles are common but as Spinnaker points out roofing materials used in the US is a regional thing. Where I am asphalt and composite shingles are common but across the US southwest terracotta roofs are more common. Steel roofs are taking off as Spinnaker mentions and those last decades when maintained and are inexpensive.
Even at 20 to 30 years I would not want to remove solar panels just to replace a roof and if I were to place panels at ground level there goes a nice yard. Not to mention how well do the panels work when snow covered as having a 6" snowfall is pretty common here. For me, in my situation, solar simply is not practical.

Ron

 

@MisterBill2: Great plan if you can get mineral rights. Otherwise drilling and tapping into underground sources may be illegal.

Years ago, when I was a kid, I took an eight foot half inch schedule 40 PVC pipe and melted the end into a pointed nozzle, then at the other end I attached a hose and drilled straight down into the ground. I kept drilling until no water was coming out of my bore hole. I struck the sand base and created a natural drain. Actually I was after free water, but back then I knew nothing about mineral and water rights laws. All I really ended up doing was creating a drain for water in the yard. As a boy I made a stream about six feet long, a stream I played with my Hot Wheels cars and stuff. The stream was maybe 3 inches wide. The alternative was to have an ever growing lake in the back yard, and my dad wouldn't stand for that.

I've often wondered what would have happened if I would have sunk some lengths of pipe down into the ground. If I could have successfully pumped water up from the underground water source.

The neighbor down the block drove the gas well with the help from a friend. I watched them doing it. They had a driving rig that used a really old engine and transmission to spin a cathead and they looped a rope around that to pull the driving weight up a few feet, then they slipped the rope off the cathead and the weight would drop and drive the pipe a few inches, probably almost a foot. They worked at it for a week, working each evening for a while.The year was 1955, as I recall.I was fairly young at the time, probably 10 or 11. It was quite a show to watch. They did hit gas, I learned much later, but there were several challenges in heating the house with it. And this was in a middle class nice neighborhood.

EXPLANATION: A cathead looks like a flat belt pulley except that it is about a foot wide and six inches in diameter, and it only has a flange on the driving shaft side.If you wrap a rope around it and pull, the cathead will also engage the rope and pull, so one person can generate many hundreds of pounds of pulling force..

 

I have been involved in various "discussions" with different people re solar and other "renewables". Every one has ALWAYS talked about how solar etc will be great. Thats fine for your home , I guess, but NOT one person has considered the larger economy in regards to the requirements of a modern industrial country where RELIABLE power is required EVERY day(and night) of the year or for critical services.
When they are challenged on this issue they babble on about batteries etc. They have NO idea how many batteries it would take to replace one 500MW coal fired power station or the cost and long term maintenance required . They also totally ignore the environmental issues of the technology used in battery manufacture. Your Mr Musk installed 1MW worth of batteries in one of our states(South Aus) with a great deal of publicity about how wonderful it was. When it was finally put into service during a power outage it only lasted a short while (not sure how long). If coal or gas is too polluting then we need to invest in nuclear or possibly fusion(if it ever will work commercially).

 

if I were to place panels at ground level there goes a nice yard. Not to mention how well do the panels work when snow covered as having a 6" snowfall is pretty common here. For me, in my situation, solar simply is not practical.

Ron

At least at ground level they are accessible for clearing snow. When I installed a satellite dish I made sure to mount it on a pole in my backyard for such a reason. Glad I did or there would have been a number of days I was without TV.

No we get no snow and my snowblower is going to waste,

 

Most of California is naturally uninhabitable. Only our hubris has allowed people to live there. Now politicians are doing what nature could not do.

 

It seems to me that the area along interstate highways could be good for solar power arrays, and the land taken up by those huge clover-leaf interchanges as well. The extra advantage is that it would all be accessible because of the nearby roads. Of course it may be that a whole lot more area than that is required, I have not done the math. But the land is available and not usable for much else, unless they want to plant trees to capture all of that carbon dioxide. Of course the pollution, or at least the chemical issues, associated with producing the photocell arrays is another concern which I have not investigated, but some complain about. I am not sure what to think about it.

 

@MisterBill2: Great plan if you can get mineral rights. Otherwise drilling and tapping into underground sources may be illegal.

Years ago, when I was a kid, I took an eight foot half inch schedule 40 PVC pipe and melted the end into a pointed nozzle, then at the other end I attached a hose and drilled straight down into the ground. I kept drilling until no water was coming out of my bore hole. I struck the sand base and created a natural drain. Actually I was after free water, but back then I knew nothing about mineral and water rights laws. All I really ended up doing was creating a drain for water in the yard. As a boy I made a stream about six feet long, a stream I played with my Hot Wheels cars and stuff. The stream was maybe 3 inches wide. The alternative was to have an ever growing lake in the back yard, and my dad wouldn't stand for that.

I've often wondered what would have happened if I would have sunk some lengths of pipe down into the ground. If I could have successfully pumped water up from the underground water source.

Moving from NYC I grew up on Long Island NY. The water table was about 15 feet down and being an island after about a foot of soil you were in sand. I did the same and had a fascination with water wells. I fixed a nozzle to the end of a pipe and bored down till no water came out. Problem was I didn't have a pump and another problem was my father didn't find me dumping fresh water in my hole. Anyway, you went down 15 feet and a hole would fill with ground water.

A big problem came later. Long Island was developing fast with new housing for returning WW II GIs. All of the homes had septic tanks which started leaching into the ground water. Not good for local wells. Finally around 1959 or 60 the sanitary sewer systems started going in and the ground water got healthy again. Many people had a well for things like lawn watering and filling swimming pools.

Ron

 

No we get no snow and my snowblower is going to waste,

Yeah, we had a few pretty light years and right now it's actually a little warmer than usual. Waiting to see what mid to late January holds and February. My neighbor who relies on snow plowing is praying for snow and since I retired I really don't care.

Ron

 

Moving from NYC I grew up on Long Island NY. The water table was about 15 feet down and being an island after about a foot of soil you were in sand. I did the same and had a fascination with water wells. I fixed a nozzle to the end of a pipe and bored down till no water came out. Problem was I didn't have a pump and another problem was my father didn't find me dumping fresh water in my hole. Anyway, you went down 15 feet and a hole would fill with ground water.

A big problem came later. Long Island was developing fast with new housing for returning WW II GIs. All of the homes had septic tanks which started leaching into the ground water. Not good for local wells. Finally around 1959 or 60 the sanitary sewer systems started going in and the ground water got healthy again. Many people had a well for things like lawn watering and filling swimming pools.

Ron

When I moved to Metairie Louisiana in 1962 there were still septic tanks in the closely spaced residential neighborhood. The amazing thing was that by digging down just over a foot one could hit water, since the whole area had been a marsh a few years earlier. We did have city water though. Then came city drains, and the water table started dropping. The result was that the ground shrank, but because most of the houses were built on pilings driven down 30 feet most of the houses did not settle. The damage was very real, because carports and attached garages were not useable any more. But the developers could now build on the rest of the ground, and so the paid off city government let them. The nice woods are gone forever. "Paved paradise, put up a parking lot" certainly comes to mind. We moved out in 1969, just before our neighborhood sunk.
I do not think we even had water rights below that property.. And a gas well in that area takes a drilling rig to go down a lot farther than up here.

 

They have NO idea how many batteries it would take to replace one 500MW coal fired power station or the cost and long term maintenance required . They also totally ignore the environmental issues of the technology used in battery manufacture.

Yes, indeed. Batteries will need to be big. Summer is not so bad, but winter is a problem. My friends are developing a new generation of flow battery, and that looks like it will be very good. I've offerd my place as a test site and will not charge them much for the privilege
But coal must be turned off as soon as we can manage. If what is said about Thorium reactors is true, that is the way to go. One advantage is they can be used to "incinerate" the Uranium reactor waste so it is a mystery why that technology was bypassed in the 40s, except of course, Uranium reactors could be used to produce Plutonium for bombs. Isn't is just the norm that we go the way that helps weaponize things?

 

[sarcasm] Just put an electric motor in the car. A battery runs the motor and the alternator charges the battery. So simple no gas engine needed.[/sarcasm]

I fought for years trying to convince a friend of mine this was not possible. He was convinced it could be done. And the guy was a mechanic! Some people you just can't reach.

I had a cousin who insisted that you could make a coil and push/pull a magnet through it and produce electricity. You could then use that power to run a motor to push and pull the magnet through it, thus self sustaining the action. THEN you add additional coils and magnets to the same shaft and get free energy. I never did manage to impress upon him the concept of energy in / energy out. You can't get more out than you put in. Maybe in heaven it works, but here in hellsville it still doesn't.

Even at 20 to 30 years I would not want to remove solar panels just to replace a roof and if I were to place panels at ground level there goes a nice yard. Not to mention how well do the panels work when snow covered as having a 6" snowfall is pretty common here. For me, in my situation, solar simply is not practical.

I agree. The roof is the place for panels because it doesn't waste realestate. However, up on the roof is not the place because you have roof maintenance to do. I have a steel roof and occasionally go up there to make sure all the screws are screwed down. Every year I find a few that have loosened. Panels would make that difficult to do.

No we get no snow and my snowblower is going to waste,

Back in 2006 when I moved to Utah we got some pretty good snowfalls during winter. Then things started to change. We started having mild winters. My neighbor says "We had a mild winter last year, this year is going to be bad." That never happens. I believe it has to do with Global Climate Change (GCC). My first snowblower was a single stage thrower. Small with a 3 1/2 HP two cycle motor. My driveway is 100 feet long and throwing snow down the driveway then RE-throwing it made for a lot of work for that little blower. So I traded it for a bigger one that wasn't running. The carburetor had gummed up, and that's always an easy clean. It had a bigger auger, was two stage and I think it had a 6 HP motor. Did better but I was still having to re-throw snow. Someone was giving away a really big machine; 8 HP with a BIG auger. That machine was nice but it was well seasoned (rusted). I finally broke down and spent the big bucks and got a real nice machine. Ever since we've had mild winters.

This year the weather forecast has been for "Big Storms", but all we got the four storms that have come through was a dusting to maybe slightly more than an inch. And more often than not I find myself just walking the snow down the driveway with a plastic shovel. I more so use my cadillac snowblower for fun. Blowing my driveway, the sidewalks in front of the elderly and doing their driveways. If I'm bored enough I'll do more driveways just because I have the machine out.

Four cumulative inches of snow, all melted before the next hit. At present there's a layer of snow on the grass, but you can still see the grass through the snow.

It seems to me that the area along interstate highways could be good for solar power arrays, and the land taken up by those huge clover-leaf interchanges as well. The extra advantage is that it would all be accessible because of the nearby roads.

Until a big-rig slides off the interstate and takes out a dozen or so panels. Then his insurance goes up. Or a car slide off and flips and rolls through several panels. Great use of wasted real estate until someone wipes out a section.

 

I am not sure how Tony got such an interesting collection of comments going, but I have a bit to comment also. First, there indeed is that possibility of errant vehicles damaging photoelectric arrays placed along interstate highways. Thus it would be smart to arrange the installations to be a bit protected by the profile of the installation. So somebody would need to do some thinking as the installations were designed. They might not be damage proof, but they certainly could be fool-resistant. And this warming cycle has happened before, but nobody remembers that because it was a while back. The solar output is not servo controlled to be perfectly constant, and just because nobody had really accurate means to measure the sun's output 50 and 100 years ago does not mean that there has not been a small increase, say 0.01%, over the past 200 years. And would that small increase in emitted energy cause an increase in temperature? Probably, but it would be slow and there would be a time lag. And also the effects may not be so very direct, given that the actual behavior of weather is admitted to be a bit more complex than we completely understand.

 

We're doomed, doomed ,I say!
Never mind! In about 2 billion years sun will expand and we'll all be toast(literally).

 

We're doomed, doomed ,I say!
Never mind! In about 2 billion years sun will expand and we'll all be toast(literally).

Yet another argument against solar panels.

 

Hi,

It is hoped that before the sun expands we will have acquired the ability to control stars and planets.

But back to the main point of solar panels...
There is a bill in congress right now or there will be in a couple of days that suggests that the entire USA becomes independent of fossil fuels. That means technologies like solar panels. If it passes, the effect will be that the entire US has to convert by maybe 2030.
The main problem i read about here is that these other technologies depend on backup technologies, and yes, like fossil fuels. So hopefully at the very least we dont loose the latter altogether. The other 'clean' technologies are a bit sporadic so we always need the backup fossil fuel technologies.
The bill was introduced by little Ocasio Cortez, or better known as "Sandy" in her earlier days dancing video.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1080943705996124160
If that video does not show up just search for "Ocasio Cortez Dance" or something like that. It's funny as heck.

 

I wouldn’t worry about that one passing.