This little episode will leave a big negative impression on those kids about how we treat criminals.

A conservative is a liberal who has been mugged
- Diane Moczar

 

Many years ago, I read an article that back then made total sense to me ... treat crime as a disease. That is, separate the sick from the healthy. DO NOT mix violent and non violent offenders, otherwise the non-violent are gonna catch the bug and spread it.

Yes, in a perfect society, prison should be about reform and restitution. But in reality is a very different thing.

And on the other hand, "society" is not without its blame either ... most of the time I see people asking for the death penalty in the same way that a child asks for revenge... reform be damned ... most of the time it's about retribution and the false "feel good" cathartic experience that they expect their enemies' death will bring them. Newsflash: it won't.

I have to admit, I've never been on the "offended" side of the story either. Other than the rare altercation that happens at least once or twice in everyone's life. But maybe that allows me to to more coolly and objectively think about this subject.

You have to do something with the non-violent offenders and the rule of law. When you just let them run wild this is the result.

 

You have to do something with the non-violent offenders and the rule of law. When you just let them run wild this is the result.

Agreed ... it's a very, very hard problem to tackle

 

Standard distribution of the Bell Curve. There's a whole lot us within 2 standard deviations of the median norm but there always has to be somone at the top and someone else at the bottom. One interesting thing about Scandanavian jails is their very low recidivism rate. They operate on a philosophy of Rehabilitation not Incarceration. Some of their low-risk inmate facilities are almost like a small private school campus. Albeit at a very high cost in taxes. Somebody's gotta pay for it!

I've seen documentaries about Scandinavian jails and I also found it interesting. There is a good number of things they do differently, that work well for them, that wouldn't work as well here, due to differences in culture, low population, high wealth per capita, and other aspects. I think this is one of them.

An interesting related sidebar, they seem to be slowly losing their ability to maintain their unique ways as they open up immigration and become more diverse countries. I have many Norwegian friends in Norway, who before I left Facebook, were saying things about the influx of middle eastern refugees that would get them labeled 15 different kinds of "-ist" if they were American and saying these things in America.

 

You have to do something with the non-violent offenders and the rule of law. When you just let them run wild this is the result.

Why is it that when Portland is given as an example it only points to one side? There in the media is never a mention of what happened when the Proud Boys descended on Portland. And don't say it was their right to do it, they went where they new they could start trouble. Just as they did on 1/6/21.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...regon-clashes-protests-proud-boys-antifascist

 

Why is it that when Portland is given as an example it only points to one side? There in the media is never a mention of what happened when the Proud Boys descended on Portland. And don't say it was their right to do it, they went where they new they could start trouble. Just as they did on 1/6/21.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...regon-clashes-protests-proud-boys-antifascist

Both side are complete low-life thug idiots that should be arrested on sight and the city admits it let's them fight, so it's hard to just blame the idiots for doing what idiots do.

https://apnews.com/article/oregon-portland-ted-wheeler-proud-boys-44e376f58f350aa480fdd6136718a515

Portland mayor: Keeping police away from protest a mistake

PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) — Nearly three weeks after armed far-right and far-left protesters violently clashed in the streets of a diverse neighborhood in Portland, Oregon, the city’s mayor said Wednesday the lack of police intervention was “not the right strategy.”

Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler and Police Chief Chuck Lovell have been criticized by residents, activists and state officials for the police bureau’s hands-off approach, when Proud Boys and antifascists brawled in streets, business parking lots and school grounds Aug. 22.

State lawmakers representing northeast Portland said they were confused and frustrated by the decision for police not to intervene, while residents said they felt “terrorized and abandoned” as they watched fireworks explode in busy streets and people — in helmets and gas masks and armed with baseball bats, paintball guns and chemical spray — confronting each other.

 

Two many white supremacists hide behind the veneer of politics, it is not a political issue. It is a hate issue. The KKK with a rebrand.

 

To whom it may concern. My deleted post was not in the least political. The reference was to someone that is rich and has been proven to hire people to do his dirty work. Don't believe it? Ask Michael Cohen. When exactly is the mention of he who can't be mentioned not going to be seen as political?

 

The fact that you mentioned our former commander in chief should be a clue.

 

To whom it may concern. My deleted post was not in the least political. The reference was to someone that is rich and has been proven to hire people to do his dirty work. Don't believe it? Ask Michael Cohen. When exactly is the mention of he who can't be mentioned not going to be seen as political?

Only you could post things like that a straight face of it not being political.

 

Feel free to post them, if it is out of line it is our job to knock them down. But as in politics there are consequences which too many politicians don't understand.

 

The fact that you mentioned our former commander in chief should be a clue.

That's the thing, I never mentioned him by name. Just alluded to him, like my best friend here, nsa, does so often. He has, it seems become like Yahweh/YHWH in the Old Testament I can't be mentioned.

But yet while he who can't be mentioned is not allowed political people of other counties and what they say and do is completely allowed. Case in point was Brexit.

 

Only you could post things like that a straight face of it not being political.
View attachment 248254

Oh, that's right people can never grow or move on from something that was, when things change. Want me to bring up some of your old thoughts and beliefs?

 

An alarming bit of data. The US has more people in prison, per capita and absolute number, than any other country.

• Ranking: most prisoners per capita by country 2021 | Statista

This 2016 HuffPost article puts the cost at $1T annually with half of that paid by families and communities of the incarcerated. Unfortunately the link to the study cited in that article is broken...

The Full Cost Of Incarceration In The U.S. Is Over $1 Trillion, Study Finds | HuffPost

 

The solution is easy, don't do the crime. It's Business and crime as Your Business is as American as apple pie.

 

Two many white supremacists hide behind the veneer of politics, it is not a political issue. It is a hate issue. The KKK with a rebrand.

I've never recognized the utility of the word "hate" when used as a distinction referring to crimes and speech. Hate can be very subjective and misapplied (with arguably complete validity) to almost anything. And even if were a good descriptor of anything, does it matter? Does it change anything?

Say a KKK member kills a black man and attests in court that he did it because he hates black people. He says in front of the court "this was a hate crime and I'm proud if it." Absolutely a hate crime, as defined by the perpetrator. Now say another man kills someone in a parking lot for their watch and wallet and in court says "I didn't hate him, I just don't care about him. He is a piece of meat to me, just like everyone in this room." Is the "hate" crime somehow worse than the crime of indifference? The results are the same: someone died, someone else killed them, and the murderer should be removed permanently from society.

Say a fit person goes on a college campus with a bullhorn, mercilessly fat-shaming overweight passers-by in the most virulent way imaginable for everyone within 100yds to hear. Hate speech, right? What if instead he targeted people wearing green shirts? Still hate speech right? Confusing, strange, hard to take seriously, but... "hate speech." Would you be offended if you were wearing a green shirt and he targeted you? Or would you write him off as a moron? I don't think I could let that affect me if I wanted to. I wouldn't like the attention but I wouldn't spend the rest of the day second-guessing my wardrobe choices.

So the "hate" component is usually in the eye of the beholder. How do the actions of another affect you emotionally? If they make you or the group you belong to feel assaulted in a manner whose criteria you define, then they're actions of "hate."

In almost every single political or religious debate, I'm sure someone who is skilled at finding hate in the words of others could make a strong case for the other side having used hate speech against them. And indeed this does happen, quite often, and each time the "hate" distinction loses more relevance. To me its relevance was always in question, but I wonder how much it might still mean to anyone else at this point. It seems to be going out of style, I suspect for the reasons implied by the questions I've asked.

This is not at all a defense of any groups which might be colloquially known by one party or another as "hate groups" such as the KKK, but simply me questioning the value of such a distinction as I said in the first sentence.

 

The second case sounds like a psychopath to me. Which fits under the case of quarantine. Going out of your way to hurt or damage a specific group of people be it ethnic or otherwise falls under their purview of hate.

 

I see 'hate' as a modifier for the sentence of the crime much like depraved indifference/depraved heart is. My problem with a legal 'hate' modifier is that its been diluted as a crime descriptor to mean just about anything a random person doesn't like or approve of.

https://www.tilemlawfirm.com/depraved-indifference.html

Depraved indifference deals with the state of mind of the person committing the overall offense. They would have engaged in conduct that creates an extreme risk of death to another person. When their actions show an utter disregard for the value of human life, they will be said to be exhibiting depraved indifference. This means that they exhibit a willingness to act, not because they intend to cause harm but because they do not care if their actions will result in harm.

https://www.mpnnow.com/article/20100716/NEWS/307169932

Police say he shot and killed 24-year-old Michael Phillips at Novak’s home in Wheatland early Monday morning.

Novak called 911 and told police they had been playing a game like Russian Roulette, except they were shooting at each other.

“He’s charged with a reckless act,” Monroe County Assistant District Attorney Brian DeCarolis said. “If you know that a gun is loaded, and even if there’s a possibility that it’s going to go off, and it’s going to strike somebody, it’s probably going to kill them.”
...
Right now, Novak is charged with second-degree depraved indifference murder, which carries a maximum sentence of 25 years to life in prison.

 

The second case sounds like a psychopath to me. Which fits under the case of quarantine. Going out of your way to hurt or damage a specific group of people be it ethnic or otherwise falls under their purview of hate.

Ambiguous as it is, I guess that's most concise definition anyone could hope for. Most people won't even attempt to define it, no matter how hard you press, because as soon as they do, they, their group, their actions, their words, all become subject to their definition, and it usually doesn't play out in their favor. Often undermined by the whole "you can't be pro-X without being anti-Y" thing (which I still don't have fully formed thoughts about). So in my observation, usually no definition is given, just "if the majority people around me agree that it's hate, then it's hate."

 

I see 'hate' as a modifier for the sentence of the crime much like depraved indifference/depraved heart is. My problem with a legal 'hate' modifier is that its been diluted as a crime descriptor to mean just about anything a random person doesn't like or approve of.

https://www.tilemlawfirm.com/depraved-indifference.html


https://www.mpnnow.com/article/20100716/NEWS/307169932

I didn't know about this legal "depraved indifference" modifier. Now that I do (without having taken a lot of time to really think about it) I question it's utility too. Or any modifiers? Potentially a big can of worms here. I'm sure this has been hashed out a million times by a million people more qualified than I, and we probably have a million laws that reflect just how much I don't know about the legal implications of what we are discussing. But I'm talking less about the legal sense and more about the social sense. I'm not sure if that distinction can be made either. This is all quite nebulous and that's why I don't like it.