Prisons, quarantine zones or punishment?

strantor

Joined Oct 3, 2010
6,813
My reply, removed from other thread:
Which is what prison is all about. I have always believed certain people cannot be reformed only quarantined from the public.
Which is what I think prison should be all about. I think prison should be a place you put dangerous people that threaten society. Prison should be an uncommon sentence. I think if it's supposed to "reform" people, it's a failed concept from the start. Let's take this bad boy and put him in the bad boy's club so he can sit around for a couple years talking to a bunch of other bad boys about bad boy stuff and get more bad. Stupid. Stop locking people up for nonviolent crimes, making them a burden on society. Let them go earn money and pay extra high taxes as punishment. Or something more creative. But not prison.

EDIT: Hard labor. That should be the go-to punishment for most people who are currently sent to prison IMO. Imagine a farm with no tractors, men pulling plows like oxen. The proceeds could feed the homeless. The reason for government is often stated as "to build the roads." But they don't even build the roads, they pay contractors who milk the hell out of their government contracts. Have the government actually build the roads, using convicts.
 

dl324

Joined Mar 30, 2015
17,006
put them away from the rest of society
That comes at great cost to Society. The only way it might work is if they are sentenced to hard labor and have to pay their way. Otherwise, they end up doing nothing useful and filing frivolous lawsuits while getting free room and board on taxpayer money.
 

Thread Starter

Wendy

Joined Mar 24, 2008
23,458
Their unrestrained actions already come as a great cost to to society. I am definitely not a believer in slave labor.
 

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
13,428
My reply, removed from other thread:

Which is what I think prison should be all about. I think prison should be a place you put dangerous people that threaten society. Prison should be an uncommon sentence. I think if it's supposed to "reform" people, it's a failed concept from the start. Let's take this bad boy and put him in the bad boy's club so he can sit around for a couple years talking to a bunch of other bad boys about bad boy stuff and get more bad. Stupid. Stop locking people up for nonviolent crimes, making them a burden on society. Let them go earn money and pay extra high taxes as punishment. Or something more creative. But not prison.

EDIT: Hard labor. That should be the go-to punishment for most people who are currently sent to prison IMO. Imagine a farm with no tractors, men pulling plows like oxen. The proceeds could feed the homeless. The reason for government is often stated as "to build the roads." But they don't even build the roads, they pay contractors who milk the hell out of their government contracts. Have the government actually build the roads, using convicts.
Had a cousin that did 20 years on a work farm in Texas for 2nd degree murder.
The 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

Put them to work.
 

SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
5,060
Bottom line, prison and the death penalty in particular have been proven to be of minimal (if any) deterrent value. Prisons are merely an expensive means of removing miscreants from normal society. The concept of rehabilitation is pretty much a joke in almost every instance. If they don't go in as a hardened criminal, they learn their craft well in prison and often come out as one. Here in Georgia, we used to make them work farming their own food and clearing ditches. Now, they have to volunteer and be paid to do so. There are no absolutes.
 

Thread Starter

Wendy

Joined Mar 24, 2008
23,458
One of my favorite authors Robert A Heinlein wrote a short story where people who were criminals were dropped into a quarantine zone with no interaction with anyone on the outside called Coventry. Psychiatric care had hit the point where anybody could be cured from their criminal tendencies. Rather than imposing a liberty destroying requirement to take psychiatric care you were offered Coventry inside the other inmates had a rough and tumble justice that made anything on the outside look easy. To leave Coventry was simplicity itself. Just accept treatment and you were out. Sounds kind of like Australia to me, And they turned out OK.
 

justtrying

Joined Mar 9, 2011
439
"Shot Caller" is the best movie I have seen on prisons. Based on some reading I have done it is not far from truth. There used to be a concept of restorative justice and there is nothing restorative about prison system.
 

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
13,428
The 1 % of the population accountable for 63 % of all violent crime convictions
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969807/
The majority of violent crimes are perpetrated by a small number of persistent violent offenders, typically males, characterized by early onset of violent criminality, substance abuse, personality disorders, and nonviolent criminality.

Interpersonal violence remains one of the leading causes of impaired quality of life and mortality in the world, especially among people aged 15–44 years. In 2000, homicides accounted for half a million deaths worldwide; almost twice as many as in wars during the same year [1]. The global costs of violent crimes, both in terms of economy and human suffering, are massive, and the impact of violence on worldwide insecurity, disability, and mortality is predicted to increase in the coming decades [2]. The World Health Organization (WHO) has stated that the prevention of violence must be a global public health priority [1].
I don't have a problem with locking up, after a legal conviction, that 1% until hell freezes over for violent crimes.
e71a46c5-7677-418a-a1a6-c3922cb0f418.jpg
 

dl324

Joined Mar 30, 2015
17,006
One of the big problems with our criminal justice system is that hard core felons don't fear the consequences of their crimes. Career felons are more likely to treat going to prison as a chance to catch up with their buddies and not having to worry about where their next meal will come from or where they'll sleep. Normal people don't think that way. The thought of going to prison is terrifying for law abiding citizens.
 

SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
5,060
A Swedish friend told me long ago, when the USSR still existed, there was a problem with Poles committing crime in Sweden. The Poles would come to Sweden on holiday and commit crimes in order to be sent to prison. They considered life in a Swedish prison preferable to the daily living conditions in Soviet Poland at that time.
 

visionofast

Joined Oct 17, 2018
106
I've lived entire my life like a house cat.never have seen bad criminal scenes,criminals and prisons forby.and can't even imagine how people kill others or violate.
but when I see the recent medias spreading out news about these subjects like big farts from politicians or security system's back, I feel no enormity in my mind about,seeing myself as a 1st class murderer for future.I guess they even see crime like a business that is making money for its dealers.
 

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
13,428
Isn't it funny that the 1% number is also the same as the richest people in the world? Maybe it's really that the number should be 2%, but only 1% get caught and go to jail/prison.
No, it's not funny. It's really sad that some small number of misguided people see the world that way.
 

SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
5,060
Standard distribution of the Bell Curve. There's a whole lot us within 2 standard deviations of the median norm but there always has to be somone at the top and someone else at the bottom. One interesting thing about Scandanavian jails is their very low recidivism rate. They operate on a philosophy of Rehabilitation not Incarceration. Some of their low-risk inmate facilities are almost like a small private school campus. Albeit at a very high cost in taxes. Somebody's gotta pay for it!
 

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
13,428
Standard distribution of the Bell Curve. There's a whole lot us within 2 standard deviations of the median norm but there always has to be somone at the top and someone else at the bottom. One interesting thing about Scandanavian jails is their very low recidivism rate. They operate on a philosophy of Rehabilitation not Incarceration. Some of their low-risk inmate facilities are almost like a small private school campus. Albeit at a very high cost in taxes. Somebody's gotta pay for it!
Violent criminality is horrible but many more of us are affected by petty crimes that devalue the quality of life so we can't just let that slide either. Some of my kid's HS friends decided to drive into Portland for some bubble tea at a shop in hipster town. They parked the car and left for 5min. When they got back some low-life druggie had busted the side window and stolen their school backpacks. This little episode will leave a big negative impression on those kids about how we treat criminals.

This is what happens when 'Law and Order' is broken in a city or state. People start to fight back.
 

cmartinez

Joined Jan 17, 2007
8,276
Many years ago, I read an article that back then made total sense to me ... treat crime as a disease. That is, separate the sick from the healthy. DO NOT mix violent and non violent offenders, otherwise the non-violent are gonna catch the bug and spread it.

Yes, in a perfect society, prison should be about reform and restitution. But in reality it is a very different thing.

And on the other hand, "society" is not without its blame either ... most of the time I see people asking for the death penalty in the same way that a child asks for revenge... reform be damned ... most of the time it's about retribution and the false "feel good" cathartic experience that they expect their enemies' death will bring them. Newsflash: it won't.

I have to admit, I've never been on the "offended" side of the story either. Other than the rare altercation that happens at least once or twice in everyone's life. But maybe that allows me to to more coolly and objectively think about this subject.
 
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