Why is this so hard to believe?

Because it claims to violate the laws of physics. Because no feasable explanation for the claims have ever been given. Because the persons making the claims either spout gibberish or they vanish entirely.

Don't we get more energy from oxidizing gasoline than is needed to ignite it?

Apples and oranges, my good fellow. Apples and oranges.

Does water not contain more energy than gasoline?

Nope. Sure doesn't. Never has. Never will.

Aren't both of these substances liquid matter?

Iron is a liquid if one gets it hot enough. Nitrogen is a liquid if one gets it cold enough. If you get anywhere near a point, please feel free to make it.

Water is a dielectric fuel source.

The phrase "dielectric fuel source" has no meaning. You have said nothing.

By placing a diode on the secondary of step up transformer, and using dielectrically insulated electrodes, we can pump voltage into the cell without leaking any amperage.

Your words once again have no meaning. I have asked you in the past to try and learn what the words mean. Obviously, you have no interest in learning how the world works. You choose instead to bury yourself in your little fantasy. I cannot help you.

When the breakdown threshold of water's molecular bond is reached, the molecule just falls apart.

More gibberish. Your words have no meaning. You might as well be typing words at random. (Assuming you are not already doing so...)

 

If it were possible for a difference in potential to dissociate the water molecule, that would have been noticed long ago. Think of the potentials to be found around power line transformers. If the potential is all it takes, all power transformers and lines would be breaking down water into gas all the time.

If you want to argue voltage and frequency, look at the world's radio and television transmitters, and radar while you're at it. Thousands of volts on the radiators and frequencies from 7 Hz up to better than 40 GHz. Every kind of modulation applied imaginable, too. Naval radars put out millions of watts of power and create no breakdown effects with water vapor. And water vapor is pretty common out over the ocean.

Lightning is in essence a really big spark. Sparks are composed of all frequencies. There is in a bolt of lightning more voltage than you can imagine, but no breakdown of any water molecule comes from it. Similar voltage can and have been made by Van de Graaf generators since the 1930's. No effects like molecular breakdown has yet been noticed.

If you take away the magical language, nothing happens in one of Meyer's cells that hasn't happened already, and with no such result as he predicts.

A bit of chemistry will tell you that liquid fuels have higher energy densities than gaseous. That's why they go to the trouble of liquifying the hydrogen and oxygen for rocketry. The tanks are lots smaller that way.

Hydrogen is close to ideal for a propellant due to its very low mass. The exhaust moves faster, so it provides more reaction to drive the rocket. The equation that governs this is : E = 1/2 mV^2. The lighter hydrogen molecule affects the total energy less than the increase in velocity. Note that the combustion of hydrogen and oxygen is not that amazingly energetic. Flourine is the stuff that defines energetic. Flourine will oxydize anything at all, including oxygen (yep, oxygen is the fuel in F2 - O2 reactions).

 

Clearly you are mistaken if you think gasoline has more energy than water. Which is denser? Which floats and which sinks when mixed?

Thingmaker, thanks for helping me make the point, radio waves do allow water to combust. This guy was using microwave beams to try to cure cancer and accidentally lit a glass of salt water on fire.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGg0ATfoBgo

And yes, this is a form of fission.

 

Farlander,

I have been reading your outrageous statements. However, I will play along.

Clearly you are mistaken if you think gasoline has more energy than water.

Well, I know that gasoline has quite a bit of chemical energy. So how come my car's gas tank is not full of water when I drive around? It sure is a lot cheaper than a fillup of refined hydrocarbons. How come you regularly hear about huge explosions and fires at refineries, but hardly ever at the water treatment plants.

Which is denser? Which floats and which sinks when mixed?

And what does that got to do with the price of beans in China?

Thingmaker, thanks for helping me make the point, radio waves do allow water to combust. This guy was using microwave beams to try to cure cancer and accidentally lit a glass of salt water on fire.

Yes, the RF generator causes the water to disassociate into hydrogen and oxygen, but it takes the same amount of energy from the RF generator as the heat from the combustion. No energy gain there. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/09/070913-burning-water.html

And yes, this is a form of fission.

No it isn't. There was no transmutation of atoms caused by splitting them. Just a separation of a compound molecule (water) into its component atoms (oxygen and hydrogen). That is not fission.

Ratch

 

Ya know, if you had just stayed awake in general science, you wouldn't be making statements like that. You have just proved that lead has a higher energy content based on its density. Or any heavy liquid like honey.

I have boiled water in my microwave on at least several occasions. Never has caught fire. Must be I forgot to add whatever that scam artist did.

Do not ever accept something presented as a video as absolute truth. It's way too easy to fudge the images. That water burning is every bit as convincing as the kid who clearly shows how to run a tv on one AA battery.

Fission, by the way, involves some particle like a neutron literally imparting energy to an atomic nucleus such that it divides into two or more lighter atoms. The excess binding energy shows up as unhealthy things like gamma rays and charged particles.

Hydrogen can't be fissioned, as it is as small as an atom can get. If you think that oxygen is fissioning, where is the evidence of the new atomic species, along with the characteristic radiation?

The clown probably mixed in some Everclear to make the flame. Did anyone report an assay of the water? Nope? Guess we only have his word and video for it. But it would be very easy to establish just what reaction actually went on.

All you have to do is ask for proof. No proof offered, it's a scam.

 

Ok the more I watch that video the more I agree with you. These videos however get more interesting the longer I research electrolysis. www.waterfuelcell.org SEE Lecture Videos at the top of the page

True it is not real fission, thanks for the awesome explanation. I only said it was a form of fission because it is breaking a molecule in half, just not an atom.

I've heard a ton of both sides of the story at this point in the game. I'm frustrated that my bank account is dwindling, that my rubber band plate spacers are not working well because the plates are not perfectly cut, and that some are bent from where the 4' sheet was in the back seat of my car for 2 weeks.

All in all, it's been a great lesson in electricity. By the way, does current really flow from negative to positive? So does that mean electrons come out of the ground, and voltage is more like an electron vacuum?

But I'm not going to give up. In other forums I attend people are making breakthroughs all the time.

One realization which has recently dawned regards the resonance of the water molecule, facilitated by the resonant properties of an LC tank circuit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the electricity 101 book I read said that when identical waves have coinciding phase, the amplitude/voltage of the signal is double.
So, if we pulse the water capacitor with an inductor, there should be a swinging of charge between between the coil and water capacitor, an oscillation if you will. If the circuit is pulsed at the peak point of oscillation hi voltages could build up. In addition, high frequencies are not necessary, because of the rule of 9's... in harmonics, 9 is an arbitrary measure of when waves of different amplitude match phase. So, to hit the resonance of the water molecule we need only be able to achieve a frequency that is a 9th factor of the h20 resonance frequency. The way to do this is by changing the number of turns on the inductor, or changing the volume of the water cap.

This is an old schematic and needs revising, but you'll get the idea. The diode actually goes on the secondary negative. A capacitor should go on the primary negative for fast discharge of the circuit. Click it again to zoom and you'll see better.

If anybody has a 8800μF 650V capacitor I could use it. Also a machine shop would sure beat the spare bedroom in my apartment.

Good luck

 

Hey Farlander,
What I don't get is why try to make an oil-based engine work better by using a water-based engine technology. If the idea is to produce a more efficient engine using this hydrolizer technology, why foist it on an existing oil-based technology?
Even if only hydrogen or oxygen were introduced,why not make a different engine? I understand the limitations of being in a certain field, and using an existing technology to bring change to another existing field, then wondering why there is no co-operation.
So, why? Forget the electronic aspect of this. What benefit would happen? A new engine, as in a energy producer, would be the way to go. Improving an existing technology is great, improvising a new technology is genius.
The best way I've found to get more energy out of an engine is to tune the certain parts to their best harmonius tune. As in nature, so as in engineering.
As I ask, why use old technology to see the future?
Dan

 

Also a machine shop would sure beat the spare bedroom in my apartment.

My spare bedroom in my apartment is my machine shop! CNC Milling machine, metal lathe, bench grinder, PC, and all the measuring tools I need

Steve

 

Haha nice steve. Thats admirable motivation.

Right on about sounding harmonious. There's a lot to be said there.

To build a new engine would be nice but is a little out of my scope right now. The fuel cell itself should be enough for proof of concept. Actually regular ICE's are not bad, they just need to have the timing retarted to 0 degrees or more.

The rotary engine however I feel has higher potential.

 

Haha nice steve. Thats admirable motivation.

Convince my neighbours downstairs that it is nice

I actually tried my best to rid of stray noises, being in an apartment setting is tough. I ended up sandwiching two 125lb slabs of concrete between layers of carpet dampening material to help minimize coupling.

I wish more people on here had questions about machining, I would be more useful.

Steve

 

By the way, does current really flow from negative to positive? So does that mean electrons come out of the ground, and voltage is more like an electron vacuum?

If current is defined as "a flow of moving electrons," then yes. There is more than one definition of current, however. Most (not all) of the folk here on AAC use the "electrons" definition.

So, to hit the resonance of the water molecule we need only be able to achieve a frequency that is a 9th factor of the h20 resonance frequency.

What is the "resonant frequency" of water? Can you give us a number?

A capacitor should go on the primary negative for fast discharge of the circuit.

What is a "primary negative?" I've only been studying electricity and electronics for a measly 38 years, so I've not learned what a "primary negative" is. Will you educate me, please?

If anybody has a 8800μF 650V capacitor I could use it.

Let me check the garage...

...

...

...nope. Sorry. Try a bank of 169 each 50V 8800uF caps in a 13 x 13 series parallel array. It will be expensive, but it will exist in the real world.

 

The primary negative simply refers to the negative side of the primary winding of the step up transformer.

The resonant frequency of water is interesting. I haven't found a concrete number anywhere, some say it doesn't exist. Meiyers claims it can be under 10khz, others say 22ghz, so more research on this is definitely needed.

 

That, among other things, is a reason why it is so very hard to accept that anyone has actually done this over unity electrolysis. If it has been done, why is the "correct" frequency all over the map? No two sites that tout water power have data.

Their various "information" about the frequency starts vaguely down around 6 KHz and goes up. Some say it takes a very long time for the water molecules to start responding, which would make experimenting a real dog. That would imply that you can't just sweep the frequency and look for a resonance effect. That is also at variance with resonance effects observed with everything else.

Some sites (more correctly, inventors) state that you need a mix of frequencies to do the job. That data is also very much at variance with all other resonance effects. My strong feeling is that is part of the scam - setting up conditions that are impossible to achieve so nobody can claim fraud.

 

The primary negative simply refers to the negative side of the primary winding of the step up transformer.

So it is a pulse transformer, not an AC transformer? It is hard for me to tell from the schematics - they are of poor resolution for my old eyes.

A capacitor should go on the primary negative for fast discharge of the circuit.

Did you perhaps mean that a capacitor should go across the primary? Or that a capacitor should go across the MOSFET? (Assuming it is indeed a MOSFET I'm looking at?)

 

This is like whack-a-mole. The circuitry is somewhat recycled from other pubs from Meyer, but the transformer and external circuit are suddenly different.

This one won't work as drawn. You are applying unipolar current to the primary, so the "blocking diodes" are placed incorrectly. They should be in the secondary of the transformer to have the effect of placing DC across the cell(s).

Somehow, the transformer core with it's "unipolar magnetic field" has gone away. If you're trying to make high voltage, then you want few turns on the primary and many on the secondary. Voltage step up and turns ratio go together.

What the alternator is doing ghosted in like that is beyond me. If I were going to mess with this, I would make one cell and experiment with it on a tabletop. If the effect is supposed to work with no current in the cell, then I would insulate the plates with plastic. I would try frequencies with reasonable voltages - remember that 20 KV will arc across small gaps with the greatest of ease.

It's also easy to lead the gas from the cell outside. Recall that if it does start to work, you have a bomb on your hands. Same for the cell arcing over - steam explosions are pretty powerful. Put up a shield. Be patient. Keep notes.

 

Hey Beenthere and Thingmaker,
Please read my post. There is the inherent fault. What is wrong is trying to mix oil and water. The electronics don't matter.
It is the same as trying to solve Einstein's relativity equations. Einstein used language to solve a mathematical equation.
The free energy guys do the same. Don't fall into the same trap. You are always the one that supplies all of the information they need to construct their circuits. Then you are to blame why their stuff doesn't work.
Dan

 

You are always the one that supplies all of the information they need to construct their circuits. Then you are to blame why their stuff doesn't work.

The information we supply has nothing to do with constructing "their" circuits. "Their" stuff doesn't work because it is based on fantasy and fallacy. We're trying to tell them so in advance. The blame, if you feel blame needs to be laid, goes to the folk who came up with these scams in the first place.

 

So sorry,

No blame is laid on your shoulders, the scammers and their supplicants are to blame. But if you look at their websites, they are using sites like this to hone their electronics. I wasn't always such a good boy. Overunity sounded like a good idea.
Dan

 

I think it is fine to hone one's skills, or to acquire new skills. I also think it is good to acquire knowledge. Perhaps we can help one or two of the free energy crowd to understand how things really work. Perhaps we can help them abandon their over-unity schemes and then achieve something useful!

 

If they get spectacular results at electrolysis (which still doesn't work) then they will have aquired several new skills. Tinkering is a form of entertainment besides.