What's Up With Grid Sub Stations?

Thread Starter

Reloadron

Joined Jan 15, 2015
7,080
Those of you who know me have likely seen my post regarding how frail and wide open our power grid substations are. Recent attacks on substations should have made that very clear. It doesn't take much and the fact that most grid substations are normally in more rural isolated areas makes them and easy target. Everything in them is automated anymore so not much human intervention. Winters where I am are cold and dark. Loose power and in short order homes get very cold and very fast, then pipes freeze and burst and things get very ugly. Just wondering if anyone else has a view on this? Just a blackout wreaks havoc but imagine a coordinated attack like we just witnessed. While I have thought about it and mentioned it casually I never described coordinated attack but now any idiot who can read a newspaper knows how fragile the US power grid actually is and how simple it is to take down a substation. Views? We need to get with the program like other countries who have power substations below ground and power delivery below ground.

Ron
 

Papabravo

Joined Feb 24, 2006
19,591
You are not wrong to be scared. This is not the only obvious vulnerability and knowing that it may your friends and neighbors doing it is positively terrifying. It may be dangerous but calling out the folks talking smack may be the most effective first line of defense. It will be hard to inform on a friend or a family member but keeping my household safe it the TOP priority.

The local FBI office is going on the speed dial.
 

dl324

Joined Mar 30, 2015
15,457
There was an event in California before the NC incident. In that one, the culprits moved heavy metal plates to access fiber optic cables, which they cut. They reported on the news that it likely took more than one person to move the plates. They also shot up the transformers.

Underground substations will just require more than rifles to take them down. Bad guys have known how to make bombs for a long time.

We need some domestic terrorism laws so there's more opportunity to stop them before they can act.
 

Papabravo

Joined Feb 24, 2006
19,591
There was an event in California before the NC incident. In that one, the culprits moved heavy metal plates to access fiber optic cables, which they cut. They reported on the news that it likely took more than one person to move the plates. They also shot up the transformers.

Underground substations will just require more than rifles to take them down. Bad guys have known how to make bombs for a long time.

We need some domestic terrorism laws so there's more opportunity to stop them before they can act.
Maybe a domestic terrorism hotline.
 

Thread Starter

Reloadron

Joined Jan 15, 2015
7,080
I agree with you guys. Personally I am not worried since this entire house has a backup generator. I am concerned for neighbors, friends and family especially during the winter months. Money does get friends to rat out others. On that note when the US was hunting for Osama Bin Laden there was a 25 million dollar reward and we got nothing for years. I just see too many holes in our infrastructure, too much vulnerability. One concern is now that this is all well published I hope it does not lead to a chain of more events like it. Also transformers are far from bullet proof and easy targets.

While not attacked I saw a video once of a substation going up in smoke. Took awhile of arcs and sparks and the transformer dumped it oil which vaporized and ignited. Wow. The video was I believe shot by the responding fire department who just kept their distance. Pretty cool video.

Underground substations will just require more than rifles to take them down. Bad guys have known how to make bombs for a long time.
Oh yes, if they want bad enough they will manage to get.

Ron
 

visionofast

Joined Oct 17, 2018
104
The same panic goes for internet lines here.every time they want to shut down data lines due to security or politics,they say they are eaten by under ocean sharks and so on.
BTW,a kid in my neighbourhood is now able to unlock more than 50% of car anti theft systems and parking doors via a simple arduino circuit.so,what'd it be for the next?!
 
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MrSalts

Joined Apr 2, 2020
2,617
Our unlimited access gun laws are so wonderful. I definitely need to protect myself (or shoot prairie dogs) with the help of some nice, armor piercing rounds. Hardened steel or tungsten carbide - you choose.
https://www.sbrammunition.com/Armor-Piercing-_c_86.html

It says, Federal, State or Local LEO only but, we have all kinds of turnover in our local PDs so, who knows who has a box full in their drawer
 

Thread Starter

Reloadron

Joined Jan 15, 2015
7,080
Our unlimited access gun laws are so wonderful. I definitely need to protect myself (or shoot prairie dogs) with the help of some nice, armor piercing rounds. Hardened steel or tungsten carbide - you choose.
https://www.sbrammunition.com/Armor-Piercing-_c_86.html

It says, Federal, State or Local LEO only but, we have all kinds of turnover in our local PDs so, who knows who has a box full in their drawer
Possibly you could explain to the class a question I have. Why was it prior to the GCA of 1968 I could walk into my local hardware store and buy guns and ammo or any old Army Navy surplus store and buy guns and ammunition to include real GI surplus armor piercing ammunition as easily as I could buy a hammer and nails yet we never had a problem with guns or gun violence. During High School I was on our HS Rifle team and we brought our rifles to school and kept them in our lockers. The HS basement had a range. Guns were more easily available then than now and yet we never had a problem and we never dreamed of turning a gun on another human being. The GCA of 1968 and all subsequent gun control has failed to do anything but is no more than feel good do nothing legislation. Anyone who believes more attempts at gun control will solve a problem of coarsening of the US culture is having dreams. Who would believe those who want a gun for all the wrong reasons would obey even existing laws. Estimates place about 400 million guns in this country and if guns or the availability of guns were the problem I think we would know it by now. So why are we only now screaming about guns and gun violence? What has changed. Maybe since we like legislation so much we should legislate morality.

Next for informational purposes as to the armor piercing bullet nonsense I suggest anyone considering selling actual real armor piercing bullets or ammunition read and be familiar with familiar with 18 USC 921(a)(17): which gets into AP ammunition. In a simple nutshell If you want to make or sell AP ammo, you’ll need to get a Type 9, 10, or 11 FFL, and you’ll also need to become a Special Occupation Taxpayer (SOT). As a manufacturer of AP ammo, you’ll need to accurately track and keep a log of every AP bullet you make, and you’ll only be able to sell to specific customers (typically government/LE) with approval. Most advertising you see is BS and actual AP ammunition is not all that easy to come by unless you get the true AP bullets and roll your own.

OK, we drop the gun being available. Let me share this:
Ballons in Power Line.png
The upper lines are 25KV and the lower lines 7 KV. Note the mylar balloons which got away from our neighbors granddaughter tangled in the three phase 7 KV lines. Two days after this picture was taken it sounded like a string of firecrackers going off and then darkness with two of three phases laying on the street in front of my house.

Ok so no gun and ammo to shoot a transformer how about I take a nice steel chain with a weight on it and wing it up across the lines of a substation? No guns needed. Hey how about I just build an IED from the anarchist cookbook.

Now in case you simply do not get it this thread, my thread is about the vulnerability of the US power grid substations. It's not about gun control or your view of guns. Now if you would like to start a thread about gun control then have at it. While you ponder all of this I am not about to lower myself to argue gun control or alleged armor piercing ammunition. I would appreciate keeping the thread on topic.

Thank You
Ron
 

MrSalts

Joined Apr 2, 2020
2,617
So you're saying Armor piercing ammo was available at Army .surplus stores and you could buy it as easily as a hammer and now there are multiple federal laws regulating the mass of AP bullets sold in the 1960's. And, in the same paragraph, you say there are 400M guns in circulation and it's too late to make laws regulating those?

Also, you can,aim gun control laws didn't work but there was a significant drop in mass shootings when the assault weapons ban was in effect? It really depends on which statistic you look at - it's really easy to find one that appears to be "no effect".
 

crutschow

Joined Mar 14, 2008
31,126
Anyone who sabotages our power system should definitely be considered a terrorist, same as the 911 perpetrator's,

So it looks like the right-wing kooks and neo-nazis are wanting to start a civil war by attacking our infrastructure.
With that, and the fascists trying to subvert our government, maybe it is time for me to buy an AR-15. :rolleyes:
 

MrSalts

Joined Apr 2, 2020
2,617
Anyone who sabotages our power system should definitely be considered a terrorist, same as the 911 perpetrator's,

So it looks like the right-wing kooks and neo-nazis are wanting to start a civil war by attacking our infrastructure.
With that, and the fascists trying to subvert our government, maybe it is time for me to buy an AR-15. :rolleyes:
I was going to stock up on gold coin for the apocalypse but I changed my mind. I'm going to get a few pallets of AR-15s instead. A much better bartering media.
 

Jon Chandler

Joined Jun 12, 2008
432
Without venturing too far into the gun control debate, I would like to point out one detail. The NRA (National Rifle Association) at one time promoted gun safety, conducted hunting safety classes and stood for responsible gun ownership. Now their values are a bit less clear beyond "any gun control measure is bad".
 

MrSalts

Joined Apr 2, 2020
2,617
Without venturing too far into the gun control debate, I would like to point out one detail. The NRA (National Rifle Association) at one time promoted gun safety, conducted hunting safety classes and stood for responsible gun ownership. Now their values are a bit less clear beyond "any gun control measure is bad".
Once upon a time, the NRA was run by gun owners. Now, the NRA is run by the National Shooting Sports Foundation which is the Firearm Industry Trade Association - the group that renamed AR-15s "Modern Sporting Rifles". I don't know what sport. Kind of a Squid Games thing I guess.
 

SamR

Joined Mar 19, 2019
4,492
Don't know about terrorist but I remember in 1969 when some drunken idiot threw a piece of chain into the substation supplying Tennessee Tech killing the power to the University and half the town. Not to mention the idiots who take potshots at road signs and the insulators of high voltage feeder lines. I guess in today's political arena-speak they are now domestic terrorists instead of just plain ole dumbasses...
 

Sensacell

Joined Jun 19, 2012
3,098
It's a reminder of just how delicate our modern technological society is.

If this keeps up, the cost of energy will increase dramatically, defending this infrastructure is going to be very difficult and expensive.

Just look at how 9/11 increased the "cost" of flying- the time lost to security measures now adds up to trillions in lost productivity around the world.
 

MrSalts

Joined Apr 2, 2020
2,617
I think we are jumping to conclusions about the perpetrator. Terrorist groups tend to take credit for their attacks. I am guessing dumbass on this one.
Nope. Several news outlets have said there are clear instructions on the NeoNazi websites about shooting two adjacent HV substations to prevent rerouting of power.

Here, two substations (in Carthage and Pinehurst) were shot up. Now, authorities are investigating whether a "vandalism shooting" at a single substation on Nov 11 was a prelude to the Carthage/Pinehurst shooting. Too similar to believe it was an uninformed dumbass in my opinion.
 

BobTPH

Joined Jun 5, 2013
6,080
I didn’t say an uninformed dumbass. Dumbasses might well read neo-Nazi web sites. That doesn’t make it an organized terrorist attack on our infrastructure.
 
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