I don't grok.
Hot air certainly doesn't "know" to rise, but does a sprouting seed?
My brief research on gravitropism was not very enlightening on the philosophical side.
"I think therefore I am" - A plant am, therefore do it think?

Does a mother hyena know to protect its babies? Or is that just a behavior that it exhibits like hot air rising?
Does a fish know it needs to eat? or?
Does a cell know it needs to divide? or?
My dog definitely knows I'm his dude. Right?

The kid-question "how does a seed know which direction to grow" now has me questioning the loyalty of my best good friend. I realize I hyperfocused on the wrong part of that question but now that I have, I can't go back. I no longer know what it means to know anything, and the dictionary isn't being very helpful.

know - verb -ˈnō ...
[...]
b(1): to recognize as being the same as something previously known

 

It's the great debate, nurture versus nature. If you have a brain that is... And the philosophers can be loquacious for hours on end about what "being" means... As to "living" things, they have an encyclopedia to depend on about how to exist called DNA. Which operates by natural laws of science.

 

I don't grok.
Hot air certainly doesn't "know" to rise, but does a sprouting seed?
My brief research on gravitropism was not very enlightening on the philosophical side.
"I think therefore I am" - A plant am, therefore do it think?

Does a mother hyena know to protect its babies? Or is that just a behavior that it exhibits like hot air rising?
Does a fish know it needs to eat? or?
Does a cell know it needs to divide? or?
My dog definitely knows I'm his dude. Right?

The kid-question "how does a seed know which direction to grow" now has me questioning the loyalty of my best good friend. I realize I hyperfocused on the wrong part of that question but now that I have, I can't go back. I no longer know what it means to know anything, and the dictionary isn't being very helpful.

I need a few beers on this one ... and then I'll get back to you

 

I don't grok.
Hot air certainly doesn't "know" to rise, but does a sprouting seed?
My brief research on gravitropism was not very enlightening on the philosophical side.
"I think therefore I am" - A plant am, therefore do it think?

Does a mother hyena know to protect its babies? Or is that just a behavior that it exhibits like hot air rising?
Does a fish know it needs to eat? or?
Does a cell know it needs to divide? or?
My dog definitely knows I'm his dude. Right?

The kid-question "how does a seed know which direction to grow" now has me questioning the loyalty of my best good friend. I realize I hyperfocused on the wrong part of that question but now that I have, I can't go back. I no longer know what it means to know anything, and the dictionary isn't being very helpful.

It all mainly leads back to the universe being lazy IMO. Hot air certainly DOES "know" to rise. Mother hyena protecting its babies conserves energy usage for making new hyenas as future predators to limit prey consuming excess resources. The combined senses and brains of 'man and 'dog' are more energy efficient than man or dog alone for survival in the wild of the woods or concrete jungle.

Modern excesses in 'energy/action' modify the Principle of Least Action at the personal level but it still very much controls humans at the margins and at larger scales.


https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/thought-for-the-day.44743/page-242#post-1918802

 

Ok, here it goes ... I've had my first few sips of a highball and I'm relaxed enough to lower my guard and try to contribute something interesting to this conversation. It's so strange and unusual that it'll be borderline outrageous to most (and possibly ridiculous, at least from the Spook's perspective, if I know him well enough) but at least it'll be interesting, I think.

Our universe is composed of matter and energy, and its structure is comprised (among other things) of fields. Think of the electro-magnetic field, the Higgs field, the Strong and Weak nuclear force's fields, etc ... These fields permeate everything that is, and we live submerged in them without noticing but a few of them with our senses, and some more using detectors of our own design. There might also be more fields that we have not yet encountered or even thought of.

Other than humans, animals live their lives oblivious to their immediate surroundings. They grow to accept the rain, floods, tornados and experience earthquakes and eclipses. They don't understand them, but they accept them and adapt as best they can. Our pets (mainly cats and dogs) like our company (most of the time) and watch us do our chores, exchange information, watch movies, listen to music, etc ... and they do not know what we do or why we do things. They do not understand our language (for the most part) and interpret our intentions and motivations from our attitudes and demeanor.

And yet, they are conscious. I cannot prove it, but it's obvious to me that they are conscious. They have emotions, just like us, and can feel pain, sadness, happiness and pleasure just like us.

What they lack, though, is the capability of comprehending things at an abstract level. That is, they have a very, very limited capability of understanding cause and effect, and action and reaction, compared to us. They also have a limited memory, compared to us.

And yet, they are conscious. I honestly don't know about flies and lizards, and I'm not going go there at this point. I'll just stick to cats and dogs. I believe they are conscious, but I can't prove it. Just as I can't prove if my wife, my kids or my mom and dad are conscious. I'm just accepting that they are because otherwise the world wouldn't make any sense and I'd go mad if I spent the rest of my days trying to prove such a thing.

Here's what I'm driving at. I believe that maybe, just maybe, there is a field of consciousness that permeates the universe. And our brains tap into said field and allows us to experience existence. All of life that is conscious on this earth is connected to that field somehow.

This theory, at least for now, is thoroughly untestable, I know. And it has enormous theological implications. But it makes some strange sense to me. It somehow justifies my belief that existence has an objective purpose.

So there. I told you it would sound insane. But that's one of the many things that has been on my mind now that I'm getting old and that I'm experiencing firsthand that my time on this world is limited. And I'm saying "experiencing", because I've always known (at least ever since I was a kid) that death awaits us all at the end of our journey.

Knowing something, and experiencing and accepting something as real and inevitable is not the same thing.

 

"Animals... grow to accept the rain, floods, tornados and experience earthquakes and eclipses. They don't understand them..."

Not so long ago, humans didn't understand them either. It's all to easy to take science and the enlightenment for granted.

 

Not so long ago, humans didn't understand them either. It's all to easy to take science and the enlightenment for granted.

And there are many, many things that we do now yet understand ... heck! ... some of the "obvious" things might be right in front of our noses and we don't even notice them, just like cats and dogs do not notice the importance or meaning of our own actions.

 

Ok, here it goes ... I've had my first few sips of a highball and I'm relaxed enough to lower my guard and try to contribute something interesting to this conversation. It's so strange and unusual that it'll be borderline outrageous to most (and possibly ridiculous, at least from the Spook's perspective, if I know him well enough) but at least it'll be interesting, I think.

Our universe is composed of matter and energy, and its structure is comprised (among other things) of fields. Think of the electro-magnetic field, the Higgs field, the Strong and Weak nuclear force's fields, etc ... These fields permeate everything that is, and we live submerged in them without noticing but a few of them with our senses, and some more using detectors of our own design. There might also be more fields that we have not yet encountered or even thought of.

Other than humans, animals live their lives oblivious to their immediate surroundings. They grow to accept the rain, floods, tornados and experience earthquakes and eclipses. They don't understand them, but they accept them and adapt as best they can. Our pets (mainly cats and dogs) like our company (most of the time) and watch us do our chores, exchange information, watch movies, listen to music, etc ... and they do not know what we do or why we do things. They do not understand our language (for the most part) and interpret our intentions and motivations from our attitudes and demeanor.

And yet, they are conscious. I cannot prove it, but it's obvious to me that they are conscious. They have emotions, just like us, and can feel pain, sadness, happiness and pleasure just like us.

What they lack, though, is the capability of comprehending things at an abstract level. That is, they have a very, very limited capability of understanding cause and effect, and action and reaction, compared to us. They also have a limited memory, compared to us.

And yet, they are conscious. I honestly don't know about flies and lizards, and I'm not going go there at this point. I'll just stick to cats and dogs. I believe they are conscious, but I can't prove it. Just as I can't prove if my wife, my kids or my mom and dad are conscious. I'm just accepting that they are because otherwise the world wouldn't make any sense and I'd go mad if I spent the rest of my days trying to prove such a thing.

Here's what I'm driving at. I believe that maybe, just maybe, there is a field of consciousness that permeates the universe. And our brains tap into said field and allows us to experience existence. All of life that is conscious on this earth is connected to that field somehow.

This theory, at least for now, is thoroughly untestable, I know. And it has enormous theological implications. But it makes some strange sense to me. It somehow justifies my belief that existence has an objective purpose.

So there. I told you it would sound insane. But that's one of the many things that has been on my mind now that I'm getting old and that I'm experiencing firsthand that my time on this world is limited. And I'm saying "experiencing", because I've always known (at least ever since I was a kid) that death awaits us all at the end of our journey.

Knowing something, and experiencing and accepting something as real and inevitable is not the same thing.

A one beer with one JD and Coca-Cola post.

No, it doesn't' sound any more insane than 'string' theory. There is IMO a field of consciousness (fundamental or emergent) that permeates the universe of energy/matter/space/time and we are conscious and inquiring receivers of that field/force. The theological implications can easily be consistent with science and supernatural sources for that field if we are also willing to accept untestable things like multiverses as explanations for how QM relates to physical reality in way that seems weird or unexplainable but is testable.

 

A one beer with one JD and Coca-Cola post.

No, it doesn't' sound any more insane than 'string' theory. There is IMO a field of consciousness (fundamental or emergent) that permeates the universe of energy/matter/space/time and we are conscious and inquiring receivers of that field/force. The theological implications can easily be consistent with science and supernatural sources for that field if we are also willing to accept untestable things like multiverses as explanations for how QM relates to physical reality in way that seems weird or unexplainable but is testable.

Wow ... you surprised me today, buddy ... keep the posts coming!

 

It all mainly leads back to the universe being lazy IMO. Hot air certainly DOES "know" to rise. Mother hyena protecting its babies conserves energy usage for making new hyenas as future predators to limit prey consuming excess resources. The combined senses and brains of 'man and 'dog' are more energy efficient than man or dog alone for survival in the wild of the woods or concrete jungle.

Modern excesses in 'energy/action' modify the Principle of Least Action at the personal level but it still very much controls humans at the margins and at larger scales.
View attachment 326788

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/thought-for-the-day.44743/page-242#post-1918802

For a seed in the ground, wouldn't the "laziest" (most efficient) option be to simply not grow?

 

For a seed in the ground, wouldn't the "laziest" (most efficient) option be to simply not grow?

The "laziest" option is maximum entropy ... or non existance ... But that's not the case. The universe got started with tons of enthusiasm, and it's now winding down. It sounds strangely familiar.

 

Ok, here it goes ... I've had my first few sips of a highball and I'm relaxed enough to lower my guard and try to contribute something interesting to this conversation. It's so strange and unusual that it'll be borderline outrageous to most (and possibly ridiculous, at least from the Spook's perspective, if I know him well enough) but at least it'll be interesting, I think.

Our universe is composed of matter and energy, and its structure is comprised (among other things) of fields. Think of the electro-magnetic field, the Higgs field, the Strong and Weak nuclear force's fields, etc ... These fields permeate everything that is, and we live submerged in them without noticing but a few of them with our senses, and some more using detectors of our own design. There might also be more fields that we have not yet encountered or even thought of.

Other than humans, animals live their lives oblivious to their immediate surroundings. They grow to accept the rain, floods, tornados and experience earthquakes and eclipses. They don't understand them, but they accept them and adapt as best they can. Our pets (mainly cats and dogs) like our company (most of the time) and watch us do our chores, exchange information, watch movies, listen to music, etc ... and they do not know what we do or why we do things. They do not understand our language (for the most part) and interpret our intentions and motivations from our attitudes and demeanor.

And yet, they are conscious. I cannot prove it, but it's obvious to me that they are conscious. They have emotions, just like us, and can feel pain, sadness, happiness and pleasure just like us.

What they lack, though, is the capability of comprehending things at an abstract level. That is, they have a very, very limited capability of understanding cause and effect, and action and reaction, compared to us. They also have a limited memory, compared to us.

And yet, they are conscious. I honestly don't know about flies and lizards, and I'm not going go there at this point. I'll just stick to cats and dogs. I believe they are conscious, but I can't prove it. Just as I can't prove if my wife, my kids or my mom and dad are conscious. I'm just accepting that they are because otherwise the world wouldn't make any sense and I'd go mad if I spent the rest of my days trying to prove such a thing.

Here's what I'm driving at. I believe that maybe, just maybe, there is a field of consciousness that permeates the universe. And our brains tap into said field and allows us to experience existence. All of life that is conscious on this earth is connected to that field somehow.

This theory, at least for now, is thoroughly untestable, I know. And it has enormous theological implications. But it makes some strange sense to me. It somehow justifies my belief that existence has an objective purpose.

So there. I told you it would sound insane. But that's one of the many things that has been on my mind now that I'm getting old and that I'm experiencing firsthand that my time on this world is limited. And I'm saying "experiencing", because I've always known (at least ever since I was a kid) that death awaits us all at the end of our journey.

Knowing something, and experiencing and accepting something as real and inevitable is not the same thing.

This has an overwhelming number of implications and followup questions. Too much to process. So much that if I absolutely had to have an answer I would sooner play the Principle of Least Action card and just accept religion. "Because God said so" is a much simpler answer, and applies to a great many other questions. That said, this feels like one of those infectious ideas that will take root in my head and run as a background task for quite a while. Thanks for the thought seed.

 

The "laziest" option is maximum entropy ... or non existance ... But that's not the case. The universe got started with tons of enthusiasm, and it's now winding down. It sounds strangely familiar.

Any time I see the word entropy, I know the conversation is about to be (or already is) way over my head

 

The equivalent of "Because God says so" is "Gee, I dunno". And we all continue happily on our way in the universe living on the back of the Great Turtle.

 

The equivalent of "Because God says so" is "Gee, I dunno". And we all continue happily on our way in the universe living on the back of the Great Turtle.

"Gee, I dunno" is where I'm at right now and "because God said said so" is a more desperate level of that IMO. I'm not there yet.

 

The equivalent of "Because God says so" is "Gee, I dunno". And we all continue happily on our way in the universe living on the back of the Great Turtle.

There's also the option of affirming "because that's the way it is" ... or "it's axiomatic"

Funny how dogmas are relentlessly criticized but axioms are easily accepted ... newsflash! They're the same thing!

Truth is, we will never be able to make do without axioms. At least not in this universe. But the fewer, the better.

 

For a seed in the ground, wouldn't the "laziest" (most efficient) option be to simply not grow?

If there was not energy available above the ground state inside the seed and was just a rock in dirt, yes but a seed is a stored energy machine that winds down that cache of energy by starting to grow. Least action doesn't mean no action, it's the path taken when growing. Stored potential to kinetic.

 

There's also the option of affirming "because that's the way it is" ... or "it's axiomatic"

Funny how dogmas are relentlessly criticized but axioms are easily accepted ... newsflash! They're the same thing!

Truth is, we will never be able to make do without axioms. At least not in this universe. But the fewer, the better.

I think dogma attracts more criticism because it's more than just "I don't know." IMO "just because" and "that's just how things are" really are nearly equivalent to "I don't know." But "because God said so" is a next level thing to say.

Consider a house with 3 occupants and an empty box of cereal. Someone asks "who ate the last of the cereal" and each occupant genuinely thinks it wasn't them. This is how I would rank the answers from most honest to least honest:
1. I don't know
2. That's just how we found it
3. The ghost the 4th roommate ate it.

 

I think dogma attracts more criticism because it's more than just "I don't know." IMO "just because" and "that's just how things are" really are nearly equivalent to "I don't know." But "because God said so" is a next level thing to say.

Consider a house with 3 occupants and an empty box of cereal. Someone asks "who ate the last of the cereal" and each occupant genuinely thinks it wasn't them. This is how I would rank the answers from most honest to least honest:
1. I don't know
2. That's just how we found it
3. The ghost the 4th roommate ate it.

4. There must be a rat in the pantry

 

Ok, here it goes ... I've had my first few sips of a highball and I'm relaxed enough to lower my guard and try to contribute something interesting to this conversation. It's so strange and unusual that it'll be borderline outrageous to most (and possibly ridiculous, at least from the Spook's perspective, if I know him well enough) but at least it'll be interesting, I think.

Our universe is composed of matter and energy, and its structure is comprised (among other things) of fields. Think of the electro-magnetic field, the Higgs field, the Strong and Weak nuclear force's fields, etc ... These fields permeate everything that is, and we live submerged in them without noticing but a few of them with our senses, and some more using detectors of our own design. There might also be more fields that we have not yet encountered or even thought of.

Other than humans, animals live their lives oblivious to their immediate surroundings. They grow to accept the rain, floods, tornados and experience earthquakes and eclipses. They don't understand them, but they accept them and adapt as best they can. Our pets (mainly cats and dogs) like our company (most of the time) and watch us do our chores, exchange information, watch movies, listen to music, etc ... and they do not know what we do or why we do things. They do not understand our language (for the most part) and interpret our intentions and motivations from our attitudes and demeanor.

And yet, they are conscious. I cannot prove it, but it's obvious to me that they are conscious. They have emotions, just like us, and can feel pain, sadness, happiness and pleasure just like us.

What they lack, though, is the capability of comprehending things at an abstract level. That is, they have a very, very limited capability of understanding cause and effect, and action and reaction, compared to us. They also have a limited memory, compared to us.

And yet, they are conscious. I honestly don't know about flies and lizards, and I'm not going go there at this point. I'll just stick to cats and dogs. I believe they are conscious, but I can't prove it. Just as I can't prove if my wife, my kids or my mom and dad are conscious. I'm just accepting that they are because otherwise the world wouldn't make any sense and I'd go mad if I spent the rest of my days trying to prove such a thing.

Here's what I'm driving at. I believe that maybe, just maybe, there is a field of consciousness that permeates the universe. And our brains tap into said field and allows us to experience existence. All of life that is conscious on this earth is connected to that field somehow.

This theory, at least for now, is thoroughly untestable, I know. And it has enormous theological implications. But it makes some strange sense to me. It somehow justifies my belief that existence has an objective purpose.

So there. I told you it would sound insane. But that's one of the many things that has been on my mind now that I'm getting old and that I'm experiencing firsthand that my time on this world is limited. And I'm saying "experiencing", because I've always known (at least ever since I was a kid) that death awaits us all at the end of our journey.

Knowing something, and experiencing and accepting something as real and inevitable is not the same thing.

I know you said you don't want to get into flies and lizards but this all started with a plant seed and that's still where I am. I think this might tie into another of my fascinations, long unresolved, about how society seems to arbitrarily assign value to the lives of other creatures (human > dog > rabbit> fish > mosquito). I will try not to drag you into the weeds.

Do you credit this field of consciousness with informing the seed that it should grow, and in which direction?