Washing machine induction motor, agitation vs spin cycle.

Thread Starter

Alchemy One

Joined Oct 5, 2019
119
Hello everyone.
In a typical washing machine old school washing machine with an induction motor, mechanical pump, and transmission. under the tub. You turn the knob and you pull it to get the ball rolling. No computers, no fancy light, or some interface this or that. And the machine lasts for decades.
It fills with water, agitates, pumps water out with some spin, then fills in for rinse, agitate, and then final spin. That is the whole routine to my knowledge.

Do the motor turn in the same direction throughout agitation, pumping water out, and spin cycle?
If yes, why and if no it doesn't, why also?

Thanks in advance for a good clean easily understandable plain answer.
 

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
21,630
Basically yes, the motor gearbox takes care of the reversing action, mechanically.
In many, the motor turns one direction only for agitate, and the reverse direction for the spin cycle.
You can usually hear the solenoids kick in for changing the function on the G.B.
Max.
 

Thread Starter

Alchemy One

Joined Oct 5, 2019
119
Basically yes, the motor gearbox takes care of the reversing action, mechanically.
In many, the motor turns one direction only for agitate, and the reverse direction for the spin cycle.
You can usually hear the solenoids kick in for changing the function on the G.B.
Max.
=========================================================
In my statement, I had asked if the motor turned the same direction, yes or no.
I don't know what you meant by saying " Basically yes". Basically yes to what part of what I said?
Then you say the motor turns one direction for agitation and for a spin the reverse direction. I don't know about any solenoid anywhere or hear any clicking anywhere. I have not seen any solenoid anywhere. I have taken at least 50 of these things apart including the bits and pieces of the transmission. I don't know what "G.B" is either.

Speaking of click, that you say it is from some solenoid ( which I say don't exist) is the clicking for a centrifugal switch on the shaft inside the motor. This so-called switch is mechanical like the rest. I find the switch rather an inspiring design and hats off to the creative person who sat and perhaps walked back and forth and sleepless nights to come up with it. Totally amazing.


The sheer logic of the mechanical pump running all the time whether washing, pumping, or spinning. However, it only pumps out the water when it spins and of course before it.
Problem:
Nope. After I placed the post I went out and opened the front panel of this one Amana washing machine. I checked on that because it allowed me to watch without having to go under or raise the washer. I could not believe what I saw. The motor was turning only in one direction. One belt from the motor to the pulley in the center below the drum under the transmission. Absolutely nothing electrical with the transmission or some signal being sent from the timer etc. Just gears turning.
The water pump ( mechanical which I just installed today ordered through Amazon) right on the shaft of the motor.
Agitate, drain, spin. I watched it all. That damn motor and the belt and the whole thing turning one direction only.
I am about ready to faint.
This is really making my head spin.
Just know this is the old school washing machine.
I am not done. I am going to open two more and if I have to I will raise them and watch from below.
So I was wrong and you are wrong so far.
There you have it.
 

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
21,630
=========================================================
So I was wrong and you are wrong so far.
There you have it.
Well your original question started out by "In the typical washing machine"
There are at least 18 manufacturers to my knowledge of machines going back some decades, and they all have their certain peculiarities, so I do not know how you expect anyone to give a definitive answer to your question, or anything but a general 'Basic' reply.

I wish you luck in your future endeavors to uncover the mysteries of laundry appliances. :rolleyes:
Max.
 

alinatas

Joined Oct 25, 2020
9
man usually the motors are 2 directions spinning, and is electrical, motors usual have 6 wires, by inverting the polarity in the coils inside the motor, the motor spins in the other way.. all this information's, comes from the mechanical selector and timing. if for some reasson the selector has a damage contact inside, you are missing the one rotation of the motor... so simple.
 

Thread Starter

Alchemy One

Joined Oct 5, 2019
119
The way you reverse the direction of these induction motors is by means of reversing the current to the start winding of the motor and the start winding is fed through a capacitor. This simply means that when you hook the capacitor to one side of the start winding the motor will turn one way and when you hook it up to the other side of the start winding, the motor will turn the other way. That is in plain clear terms. The timer as it moves ( and its movement is accomplished by its own little motor turning), different arms/teeth connect different wires together. I know most like to say ( it sends signal). The only signal I know is when I wink at some chick and the other signal is her sighing and looks away.

How on earth would the motor reverse direction by just switching the wire to the capacitor in light of the fact that it is AC ( alternating current) is another story. No one has given me a straight forward simple answer without I don't know what to call it.

But I have a good idea of how that works. My self-made confidence tells me it is related to the AC system of the U.S. household is what they term as a split-phase power supply. The current alternates between the two black wires and that is perhaps one of the main reasons why they have called the white wire return/neutral wire. No one has explained this to me in clear terms either without all the whatever you want to call it.
So when you switch the wire to the capacitor ........ never mind. My fingers are getting numb already. :)

Back to the subject.
My logic tells me that a mechanical pump of these machines can not and should not pump water if it is turning both directions, clockwise and counterclockwise as that would mean that it will pump water out all the time as the pump is directly hooked up to the motor either on its shaft or by means of a belt. Nonetheless there you have it.

But when I looked at this Amana washer ( everything being mechanical) last night, the motor turned the same direction at the same speed at all times...... I got big-time confused. This has nothing to do with 1000s of manufacturers having millions of different setup. That is the usual b.s. instead of telling the other person " I don't know".
I will get to the bottom of it as I won't get a simple clear answer here unless a good soul comes along and knows and simply puts it down without ego involvement, talk about anything besides the actual subject.

With the Amana washing machine yesterday, the only thing I noticed with the rotation of the motor was when it was in pump and spin mode, the belt appeared looser. It looked vibrating if you know what I mean. One belt goes from the pulley to the transmission with one belt tensioner in between to one side of the belt. Nothing electronics to anything.
 

Thread Starter

Alchemy One

Joined Oct 5, 2019
119
Well your original question started out by "In the typical washing machine"
There are at least 18 manufacturers to my knowledge of machines going back some decades, and they all have their certain peculiarities, so I do not know how you expect anyone to give a definitive answer to your question, or anything but a general 'Basic' reply.

I wish you luck in your future endeavors to uncover the mysteries of laundry appliances. :rolleyes:
Max.
=======================================================
So you do not know how it is possible for the motor to turn the same direction for a washing machine to agitate, pump water out and spin also?
I don't. Do you?
That is what I want to find out. Whatever peculiarity makes that possible I want t know. That is my point here. I have no other point.
There is nothing peculiar or mysterious if the motor turned different directions for pumping and spin.
So do you have a clear answer? Peculiarities is not an answer. I am very peculiar myself and probably bewildering too and more, depending on who you ask.
 

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
21,630
How on earth would the motor reverse direction by just switching the wire to the capacitor in light of the fact that it is AC ( alternating current) is another story. No one has given me a straight forward simple answer without I don't know what to call it.
Very simple, all you do is reverse the shifted phase in the start/run winding from leading the main winding by 90° to lagging 90°.
A single phase induction motor normally has 180° commutation, so requires an added split or 'second' phase to operate by phase shifting against the main winding.
Max.
 
Last edited:

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
21,630
the AC system of the U.S. household is what they term as a split-phase power supply. The current alternates between the two black wires and that is perhaps one of the main reasons why they have called the white wire return/neutral wire. No one has explained this to me in clear terms either without all the whatever you want to call it.
This subject has been exhausted here if you search pasts posts.
The N.A. residential system uses a single phase transformer with a 120v-0-120v C.T. secondary, the centre-tapped zero point is earth grounded and termed the Neutral.
What else do you need??
Max.
 

michael8

Joined Jan 11, 2015
70
I suspect you'll find that the motor spins in different directions.

I'm familiar with the older Maytag washers. In agitate the motor runs
"forward", the transmission gears create the back and forth motion and
the pump pumps in.

In spin the motor runs "backwards", the transmission has a nut inside
which locks up so that the whole transmission and tub spin instead of
the gears agitating and the pump pumps out.

There are no solenoids related to washer motion, the only slightly
similar items to solenoids are the water inlet valves.

The motor direction depends on the relative phase of the current in the
start winding to the current in the run winding. A single phase motor
with a bad/open start winding won't start, but if given a spin from an
external source it will run. In either direction it's spun...

The start winding phase shift is a result of it's different
resistance/winding or in some cases a series capacitor. The washer
schematic I'm looking at shows a capacitor in series with the start
winding with the note: "CAP 50HZ ONLY" near it.
 
Here's
an energy efficient top load washer.

Ours is pretty simple and not energy efficient.

You do have a water temperature for wash/rinse.

It has a few different water levels.

There is a LID switch. The bumpers deteriorate and kill the lid switch, so pay attention to the bumpers.

There is gentle and normal which changes the speed of the motor.

You can enable a second rinse.

This stupid whirlpool chews the lint and clogs the pipes, 1-1/2" galvanized under the basement cement floor.

It has a bleach dispenser.

I think it can detect out of balance.

Mechanical timer using a synchronous motor. Their RPM is determined by frequency of the AC line.

Motor, I believe is capacitor start, the cap briefly shorts and acts as a switch that briefly engages a "start" winding.
I don't think it has a centrifugal switch.

I think a solenoid activates the pump.

if you take a wringer washer which are simpler and less safe. You add water to the tub with a hose.
You turn it to agitate. You can mechanically activate the pump (lever). You manually drain and fill again.

Rinse requires a dual laundry tub with the rollers in the center. You can change the direction of the rollers and turn them off. There is a safety release bar. There is a water deflector that changes what side of the laundry tub gets the squeezed out water.

Can't quite remember how the fabric softener in the agitator works. I believe it has to do with speed. Just remember to dilute the fabric softener.
 

Thread Starter

Alchemy One

Joined Oct 5, 2019
119
I suspect you'll find that the motor spins in different directions.

I'm familiar with the older Maytag washers. In agitate the motor runs
"forward", the transmission gears create the back and forth motion and
the pump pumps in.

In spin the motor runs "backwards", the transmission has a nut inside
which locks up so that the whole transmission and tub spin instead of
the gears agitating and the pump pumps out.

There are no solenoids related to washer motion, the only slightly
similar items to solenoids are the water inlet valves.

The motor direction depends on the relative phase of the current in the
start winding to the current in the run winding. A single-phase motor
with a bad/open start winding won't start, but if given a spin from an
external source it will run. In either direction, it's spun...

The start winding phase shift is a result of it's different
resistance/winding or in some cases a series capacitor. The washer
schematic I'm looking at shows a capacitor in series with the start
winding with the note: "CAP 50HZ ONLY" near it.
==============================================================

(Relative phase of the current determines the direction of motor spin). Relative phase? Aren't both spin direction relative phase? Or one direction is and the other is not. Relative phase? I have heard of split phase, single-phase, two-phase, three-phase and now relative phase. But there have to be two kinds of relative phase. One for clockwise and one for counterclockwise. No? If that happens to be then the direction of the motor spin has not been explained, or even if there is one only one type of relative phase. The actual detail of how the relative phase spins it one way and then spins it the other way, by what means? All I know at the fundamental level, the elementary basic level is the right-hand rule. i.e. the direction of current, magnetic field, magnetic force/torque. The three amigos. Right?

Will you also indulge me in this makeshift venture of mine.
The Maytag washer had its days and the transmission did not want to agitate, froze up but could spin.
The Kenmore, its timer gave out and I messed with it enough times to no success.
So I decided to put the entire control panel, the whole box that is of the Maytag and set it on the Kenmore washer and wire it.
The only wiring, of course, was to the motor of the Kenmore.
Keep in mind that the transmission and the pump on both are just mechanical.
Here below are the schematics of each washer.

Notice that there are 6 wires that come and go to the Kenmore motor and 5 on the Maytag.
Notice of course that the motor on the Kenmore has low and high speed while the Maytag one speed.
With my new jimmy rigging, if you will, I have 5 wires coming from the timer of Maytag, and 6 wires of the Kenmore motor to deal with. Help match the wires for me so the system will work.
You can simply explain it in terms of the color of the wires. Which of the 5 different color wires from Maytag should I hook to which of the 6 different color wires of the Kenmore motor?
I find this interesting, especially the area of interest in my mind is what the high and low speed of the Kenmore motor is all about. One can amuse oneself with that too on a better day.
But for now just what wires to what wires or this can't happen. Can this be done or something will be a big mess big time?
Thanks in advance.
 

Attachments

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
21,630
==============================================================

(Relative phase of the current determines the direction of motor spin). Relative phase? Aren't both spin direction relative phase? Or one direction is and the other is not. Relative phase? I have heard of split phase, single-phase, two-phase, three-phase and now relative phase. But there have to be two kinds of relative phase. One for clockwise and one for counterclockwise. No?
You obviously have not understood what @michael8 and I already covered in post#8. The 1ph AC induction motor will not rotate without introducing a second artificial phase which operates at a ~90° phase angle to the main supply.
This phase angle is produced by placing a capacitor in series with a secondary (start winding). Depending on the end of the winding the start capacitor is connected to, the phase angle of the current in the start winding is either leading or lagging 90°, hence offering dual (split/dual phase) rotation.

I am beginning to suspect we are the subject of a wind-up!. :(
Max.

°
 

Thread Starter

Alchemy One

Joined Oct 5, 2019
119
This subject has been exhausted here if you search pasts posts.
The N.A. residential system uses a single phase transformer with a 120v-0-120v C.T. secondary, the centre-tapped zero point is earth grounded and termed the Neutral.
What else do you need??
Max.
========================================
The subject is about what is the exact cause of how a motor spins one way and the other by means of start winding. You have gone to a different subject and left the main subject.
And as you know I am not an educated man. Please refrain from abbreviations. It just causes a big mess.
Now see if you can clearly explain without resort to abbreviations how on earth by switching the wire in the start winding of induction motor cause change in direction of an AC, (not DC, as that does not need explanation) system. All we have is the right-hand rule, current, magnetic field, magnetic force relationship. right? As usual, it is everlasting brain surgery with no clear answer but just writing novels, from one type of word gymnastics to another.
You can also indulge, flex your muscle if you will on my new venture, in another reply below Matching the wiring of one washing machine to another.

I feel there are 4 types of people that abbreviate.
1. The lazy.
2. I don't care type, the dismissing type.
3. The educated academics in their inner circle ( justified)
4. Those who flaunt.
 

Thread Starter

Alchemy One

Joined Oct 5, 2019
119
You obviously have not understood what @michael8 and I already covered in post#8. The 1ph AC induction motor will not rotate without introducing a second artificial phase which operates at a ~90° phase angle to the main supply.
This phase angle is produced by placing a capacitor in series with a secondary (start winding). Depending on the end of the winding the start capacitor is connected to, the phase angle of the current in the start winding is either leading or lagging 90°, hence offering dual (split/dual phase) rotation.

I am beginning to suspect we are the subject of a wind-up!. :(
Max.

°
================================================
"Leading or lagging 90 degrees". Aha. Now it is getting there.
Will you indulge in the explanation of leading and lagging of 90 degrees. The exact place it is coming from, give me a mental picture if you will. All we have to work with is the right-hand rule. That I do understand.
 

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
21,630
There are a whole raft of explanations of series and parallel Inductor - capacitor circuits out there on the web, youtube included, which go into the subject what ever depth you are comfortable with.
Max.
 
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michael8

Joined Jan 11, 2015
70
(Relative phase of the current determines the direction of motor spin). Relative phase?
Aren't both spin direction relative phase? Or one direction is and the other is not. Relative phase?


There are two motor windings run and start. The relative phase of these determines the motor direction.
Here's a piece of the schematic, you can see the DPDT contacts which control the motor direction:

washer-schematic-motor.png
 

michael8

Joined Jan 11, 2015
70
The run and start windings are not identical, differences likely include
resistance, inductance, and *position in the motor*.

Picture a swing and a control button which causes the swing suspension
to raise the seat by a small amount, say a few inches. When released
the button lowers the seat back to it's original distance from the
suspension point.

At start the swing is just hangin there. Pushing the button makes
the seat go up and down but nothing else happens. It's very
different if the seat is swinging. Then depending on when the
button is pushed the swing can either increase or decrease.

This is similar to what the "run" winding does, it only creates an higher
and lower magnetic field in the motor. If the motor isn't spinning it
won't start, just sit there (and likely hum).

The start winding provides the initial twist to start the motor revolving
by together with the run winding creating a rotating magnetic field
inside the motor. It can do this because it's magnetic field doesn't
occur at the same time as the field from the run winding and also it's
not positioned the same. So the motor sees the run field in one position
and then later (phase shifted) the start winding in a nearby but different
position. This applies twist to the motor and starts it rotating.
 

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
21,630
I gather from the op's replies he is also not clear on how relative phase angle is changed in a inductive-capacitive series circuit. ;)
Max.
 
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Pretty good motor explanation: https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/alternating-current/chpt-13/single-phase-induction-motors/ I think.

Why a gentle cycle? So, you don't shread your girlfriends frilly things. Well, they should be put in a "washing bag" anyway.

A quilt or jacket requires gentle. A jacket requires it zipper to be closed.

Washing machines will walk across the room if unbalanced.

I haven't replaced the lid switch in a long time, but I am the only one using the washer. A 5 HP lathe and a 5 HP milling machine don't have safeties. You don't operate them with a log shirt on.

Production machines might have a light curtain or be enclosed with interlocks.
 
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