And don't forget flywheels.

Bob

Yes! I knew I was forgetting several and that's definitely one of them.

 

don't forget flywheels.

My dad was big on that idea back when I was a tween. He spoke of a car that was flywheel powered. You spend the weekend building up inertia then all week you used that energy to propel a car. I never took notice of that idea however. Just didn't seem real practical. Lots of energy going into storing up power only to have it dissipate if you don't drive anywhere.

I suppose the flywheel would have to be rather big and heavy. Bearings alone would likely eat into it's energy reserve. Given the needed size, wind restrictions would also eat away at it. If you were to put it in a sealed vacuum you can negate the wind resistance, but now you're expending energy pumping air out of the system.

I think the best thing (my opinion) I've seen is to use solar to run hydrogen generators. Store the hydrogen in tanks and then feed it into a hydrogen battery when needed. Provided you have no leaks you have a pretty good storage system. And for those who consider hydrogen extremely explosive - that's only if there's oxygen in the tank as well. Hydrogen on its own is not combustable. It needs oxygen and heat to complete the fire triangle.

 

The Government in California is going to require them on all new houses.

My OffGrid 7 KW 6 year old system in the AZ. desert puts out 3 KW at high noon,
2 KW at 10 am and 2pm , none at 7am and 5pm. With CLEAR skys in the winter.

Labor and Loan Interest NOT included It's only going to pay off 75% in 20 years.
If it keeps working, which is highly unlikely.

They can pay off if the right program is found; maintenance is included for the 20 year span, and both utility and government are involved in the program offer- but everything has to line up. I've had relatives do it, and they track every single aspect of expense .v. gains on spreadsheet shorterm, and long-term. So far, it's a huge benefit to them.

 

Germany has an aggressive solar policy. And new homes are required to be "Uber Efficient".

 

Germany has an aggressive solar policy. And new homes are required to be "Uber Efficient".

Germany has the highest electricity costs in Europe, with a rate of around 35 US cents a kilowatt-hour. Due to these high costs, the country has developed a program for increasing the contribution of electricity sourced from renewable sources to upwards of 80% by the calendar year 2050. During the first quarter of 2014, the country produced a record-setting 27% of its electricity via renewable sources, a result of both favorable weather and an increased capacity to utilize renewable energy within the country.

Cost Of Electricity By Country

So here in the US California is sixth highest cost. This will always come down to you can have all of the renewable energy you want but be willing to pay the price. On the bright side cost are slowly coming down.

Ron

 

Germany has an aggressive solar policy.

Yes, and they're the poster child for how not to do solar. It's been an epic boondoggle. It's forced them to start building coal-fired plants again.

 

I'm satisfied. In 2010 with rebates price for solar was $ 2 / W which sounded reasonable for a leased system.
For $ 10, 000 up front I have a 5.5 kW grid tied system which costs me $ 10 / mo. for 9 mo. & $ 0 for 3 mo.
After 2019 the system will be paid for & after 10 yr. free replacement inverter.
Only twice did I see 5 kW, mid Dec. 3 kW.

 

I have also seen proposed pumping air into a huge cavern to store energy. And don't forget flywheels.

Bob

The problem with storing gasses under pressure in underground caves is that they leak. Always they leak. Consider that city, I think it was California, where the huge gas storage cave was leaking and it made the town people sick. Never enough concentration to burn, just enough to make them a bit sick. All underground natural cavities always leak some, some more than others.

 

My thinking for off grid was to drive a gas well, because it is not that deep around here, and use the gas to run an engine, right at the well head. Thus no danger from leaking gas in the house, because the pressure is unpredictable. The engine spins a generator, and all of the waste heat from the engine heats water that circulated to heat the house and provide hot water for washing. Thus only hot water and electricity travel to the house, all the dangerous gas is used right at the well head, so the house stays safe.

 

@MisterBill2: Great plan if you can get mineral rights. Otherwise drilling and tapping into underground sources may be illegal.

Years ago, when I was a kid, I took an eight foot half inch schedule 40 PVC pipe and melted the end into a pointed nozzle, then at the other end I attached a hose and drilled straight down into the ground. I kept drilling until no water was coming out of my bore hole. I struck the sand base and created a natural drain. Actually I was after free water, but back then I knew nothing about mineral and water rights laws. All I really ended up doing was creating a drain for water in the yard. As a boy I made a stream about six feet long, a stream I played with my Hot Wheels cars and stuff. The stream was maybe 3 inches wide. The alternative was to have an ever growing lake in the back yard, and my dad wouldn't stand for that.

I've often wondered what would have happened if I would have sunk some lengths of pipe down into the ground. If I could have successfully pumped water up from the underground water source.

 

The problem with storing gasses under pressure in underground caves is that they leak. Always they leak. Consider that city, I think it was California, where the huge gas storage cave was leaking and it made the town people sick. Never enough concentration to burn, just enough to make them a bit sick. All underground natural cavities always leak some, some more than others.

There's good recent review of compressed air energy storage (CAES) and other storage technologies here:
Overview of Compressed Air Energy Storage and Technology ... - MDPIwww.mdpi.com/1996-1073/10/7/991/pdf

 

We have solar panels here and just go our latest bill. It was a $9.32 credit.
Not a lot admittedly, but it is a lot better than a $400 bill. It would be quite a bit higher if the power companies paid a better feed in tariff, but it is higher that is was a couple of years ago. About 30% of what they charge to supply.
I had the solar installed so in the summer our aircon can run for free. My thought on solar panels is to put as big as you can. Most installations are too small to be of any real benefit. Our house has 10KW. We have always been large power users but having the house aircon re-gassed and tossing a old fridge looks to have reduced our power consumption significantly. I would like batteries and was looking into Nichol Iron as the way to go. But that would be a way off as finances are not that free!
Although Nichol Iron is not the most efficient technology, their life and robustness cannot be matched by other types. If I am going to spend lots of $$$ on batteries, I want them to last more than 20 years and Nichol Iron will do that easily. Where I used to work, there were some installed at the end of WW2 and as far as I know, they are still there.

 

Our house has 10KW.

10 KW panels put out 5KW +-1KW at noon 5 times $0.15 / WH hour = $0.75 Per Hour
5 Hrs per day times 0.75 = 3.75 Per day times 30days = $112.50 They make per month.
With no fees attached pure profit with no maintenance and full sun 5 Hrs per day.
Let the forum know who you bought them from. Sounds like a good deal.

 

I have a solution, when it storms just head outside and catch lightening.


Then place it in a jar till needed.

Our average electric bill is about $80 a month. Summers and running the air conditioning higher and winters lower. Natural gas heat, hot water and cooking stove so the only big ticket electric is the clothes drier. Over the past few years the addition of LED lighting has reduced the monthly cost in addition to the fact it's just myself and my wife, the kids have kids of their own.

Less the electric clothes drier I have run this entire house, all lights and TV on with under 3 KW. With our current electric rates I have no reason to even consider going with anything wind or solar. I would likely be long dead before I would see a return on the investment.

Additionally the sun is not around much during NE Ohio US winters. Location has a great deal to do with feasibility.

Ron

 

I'm satisfied. In 2010 with rebates price for solar was $ 2 / W which sounded reasonable for a leased system.
For $ 10, 000 up front I have a 5.5 kW grid tied system which costs me $ 10 / mo. for 9 mo. & $ 0 for 3 mo.
After 2019 the system will be paid for & after 10 yr. free replacement inverter.
Only twice did I see 5 kW, mid Dec. 3 kW.

I have to compare that to my $85/mo average electricity bill, or right at $1,000/year.

If I took $10,000 and invested it at 7% real return, that would get me $700/yr so my out of pocket cost is actually around $300/year, or about $25/mo. And I still have the $10k.

I'm curious, if you paid $10,000 up front, then what is it that is finally going to be paid off after 9 years? Was that the additional $1000 for the 500 kW above 5kW?

 

Many years ago I saw, I think it was Popular Mechanics I saw where wind and solar was used to pump water from a lower reservoir to a higher reservoir. When power from wind and solar failed, there was energy stored in the water level above, sent down a pipe to hydro-electric generators. Better than a battery because it doesn't wear out, nor is there any toxic waste from used water. Simply pump it back up during the daytime. Expensive as all get-go, I'm sure. And the amount of real-estate needed, very costly. But it is one solution.

That's used in a lot of places, particularly in mountainous areas where it's not too hard to have a high and a low reservoir in close proximity. The goal there is often to run a traditional plant more or less continuously near the point of it's peak operating efficiency and then use the water shuttle to absorb off-peak surplus power and and supply peak deficit power. There are a number of advantages. For instance, you don't need to maintain a tight balance between total production versus total demand since the hydro system generally has a lot of excess storage capacity, so you can run at peak efficiency for extended periods of time before having to go up or down in order to balance out.

 

My dad was big on that idea back when I was a tween. He spoke of a car that was flywheel powered. You spend the weekend building up inertia then all week you used that energy to propel a car. I never took notice of that idea however. Just didn't seem real practical. Lots of energy going into storing up power only to have it dissipate if you don't drive anywhere.

.

[sarcasm] Just put an electric motor in the car. A battery runs the motor and the alternator charges the battery. So simple no gas engine needed.[/sarcasm]

I fought for years trying to convince a friend of mine this was not possible. He was convinced it could be done. And the guy was a mechanic! Some people you just can't reach.

 

Let the forum know who you bought them from. Sounds like a good deal.

I purchased our system from a Fly By Night company mid 2013, but I did not know that at the time. the reviews all looked ok. Then they did not file the paperwork so I did not get a feed in tariff. The price was cheaper but in hindsight, it was not the best decision.
I have 40 panels and 2 x 5KW inverters, and a roof that leaks after the installation.
And as an added bonus, 2 of the 4 isolation switches overheated. On extremely so....

So for over a couple of years, I had one bank turned off as the current was jumping up and down. Then the second bank on that inverter had the switch go up in flames! (above)
The last year or so was just running on one 5KW inverter. It was not fixed (other than me getting up on the roof for emergency knocking the switch apart and insulating it) as no electrical company would touch it because then they would have to take over the warranty. A couple of months ago, a young friend who is an electrician replaced the incinerated switch, and another he checked that was burning too. That was also replaced. The other 2 are ok.
I just cannot work on the roof anymore. When I disconnected the original burning one, my legs were starting to cramp a bit. Old age......

EDIT......
I think my original 300MW figure I had below was too high. It is probably 50MW as I recall the last reading I did started with 3xxx but they are all lost now)

With all the problems, I'm still pretty happy with it. I've fed in well over 30MW I think, without any feed in tariff return, but the meter has been reset so those readings are gone. I was recording them on the calendar for quite a while but gave up.
If I had all the feed in tariff payments, it would be quarter paid for, and that is not counting the power cost saved for the home grown power used. It is nice to see a zero flat line of power purchased during the day with the home central aircon keeping the house cool. It is 10AM here now and both inverters are already at half power. So, all in all, I'm quite happy with the investment. Power prices will only go up as time goes by and we have a bit of a buffer against that.
If you go for solar as I said before, go as big as you can!

 

[sarcasm] Just put an electric motor in the car. A battery runs the motor and the alternator charges the battery. So simple no gas engine needed.[/sarcasm]

I fought for years trying to convince a friend of mine this was not possible. He was convinced it could be done. And the guy was a mechanic! Some people you just can't reach.

We have a Prius. My dad wanted me to add a windmill to convert the air flow to power......
Nuf said!

 

I have 40 panels and 2 x 5KW inverters, and a roof that leaks after the installation.

And right there is the problem with installing panels in a urban enviroment. It is already expensive enough to replace a roof. Can you imagine the cost when solar panels are involved? I would imagine the panels would help protect the roof and extend its life but it is still going to need to be replaced someday.

Panels really only work well when they can be placed at ground level where they can be easily maintained.