That's where you lost me in your earlier post. Your system does not have chloride ion, so I didn't see the need for 316.

ops.....! sorry...
http://e-hybrid.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2226936:BlogPost:14
to prevent O2 from reacting with the electrod....

The other alloys are less expensive, easier to machine, and often more readily available. Is it worth the expense and time to get 316 shipped to you? Aircraft exhausts are often 321. You might be able to find some of that in salvage.

John

wow...!

u just reminded me that i made mistake in my request for quotation! TQ!


phewwww.........

 

The effects of chloride on corrosion cannot be translated to oxygen. As just one common example, gold is not affected at any appreciable rate by nitric acid, even with oxygen present. Add a bit of chloride (as NaCl or as HCl) and gold dissolves.

Your system is essentially free of chloride. Do you have any references to support the effects of oxygen on 304 and other alloys but not 316 stainless? John

 

you do not believe that this HHO has energy when ignited,

Please don't put words in our mouths! No one here said such a thing! We said "it takes more energy to produce this gas than is produced by burning this gas."

several cases of testing have been done with just the addition of HHO gas to a normally carbureated engine that does not have Computer controlled management,

If you can't provide valid numbers then you are just repeating pleasant fairy tales.

and it does not take heaps of energy to produce gas....

"Heaps" is not a number. The energy required for electrolysis is well know and well documented. So to is the energy released when burning the resulting gas. More energy is required to produce the gas than is created when the gas burns. Repeating fairy tales will not change those numbers.

 

The effects of chloride on corrosion cannot be translated to oxygen. As just one common example, gold is not affected at any appreciable rate by nitric acid, even with oxygen present. Add a bit of chloride (as NaCl or as HCl) and gold dissolves.

Your system is essentially free of chloride. Do you have any references to support the effects of oxygen on 304 and other alloys but not 316 stainless? John

thanx for reminding me since i'm not planning to use NaCl as electrolyte...!

 

Regarding stainless steel...

Steels with more than about 12% chromium will have superior resistance to oxidizing acids, but inferior resistance to reducing acids. Applicability of stainless will depend entirely on which electrolyte is used.

316 steel is another one of life's modern hyped-up items. (Metals are my other hobby.) The primary valid claim to fame of 316 is great resistance to sterilizing techniques used in hospitals. Salesmen decided this would be a good reason for us all to buy our cookware made from it, our body piercing jewelry made from it, and anything else they can sell us made from it.

 

Please don't put words in our mouths! No one here said such a thing! We said "it takes more energy to produce this gas than is produced by burning this gas."

If you can't provide valid numbers then you are just repeating pleasant fairy tales.

"Heaps" is not a number. The energy required for electrolysis is well know and well documented. So to is the energy released when burning the resulting gas. More energy is required to produce the gas than is created when the gas burns. Repeating fairy tales will not change those numbers.

oj you want numbers....apply 12 volts and 15 amps using a PWM to control the curent...thru 316L plates, simply because they last the longest....304 has been used effectively, but like some said...316 was made to survive..and it does..and we do not have to machine it..just cut plates out of sheet using a guillotine in a sheetmetal shop...any way 12 v at 15 amps...with an electrolyte is producing 1 litre of gas per minute..this is the most common result and the benchmark that has been used for the last 3 years....if you are willing to go and do the search and find, then you will see that is true. The evidence is there to be seen and we are not separating the oxygen and hydrogen via the anode and cathode, but simply letting the gas that is formed in the electrolysis process be used as is, uncompressed, and at normal atmospheric conditions. Go follow to ZeroFossilFuels site at YouTube and you will see what is happening out there.

 

...any way 12 v at 15 amps...with an electrolyte is producing 1 litre of gas per minute..

Wow!! 1 litre per minute!!!!
Lets see, assuming a 2 litre engine cruising at 2000 RPM that's enough to run it for about 2 revs, the other 1998 revs are powered by petrol/diesel. No wonder no one can supply meaningful figures. The hydrogen is only supplying 0.1% of the total fuel, not enough to make any difference one way or the other.

Looks like you guys need to increase the hydrogen production by several orders of magnitude to make a real difference, but if you do, your current goes up by several orders of magnitude and by the time you are producing enough hydrogen to supply 10% of your fuel requirements you will be using all of your engine power just to produce the hydrogen with none left over to actually move the car anywhere. Still, it is one way to cut road accidents.

 

Wow!! 1 litre per minute!!!!
Lets see, assuming a 2 litre engine cruising at 2000 RPM that's enough to run it for about 2 revs, the other 1998 revs are powered by petrol/diesel. No wonder no one can supply meaningful figures. The hydrogen is only supplying 0.1% of the total fuel, not enough to make any difference one way or the other.

Looks like you guys need to increase the hydrogen production by several orders of magnitude to make a real difference, but if you do, your current goes up by several orders of magnitude and by the time you are producing enough hydrogen to supply 10% of your fuel requirements you will be using all of your engine power just to produce the hydrogen with none left over to actually move the car anywhere. Still, it is one way to cut road accidents.

how many liter of Brown's Gas u need? http://www.gethydropower.com/products.html

 

how main liter of Brown's Gas u need? http://www.gethydropower.com/products.html

Look at the figures. 1 litre/minute provides about 0.1% of fuel in a small car. To provide a mere 10% of fuel requirements you need to produce 100 litres hydrogen/oxygen per minute and still have enough engine power to actually move the car.

 

oj you want numbers....

...any way 12 v at 15 amps...with an electrolyte is producing 1 litre of gas per minute..this is the most common result and the benchmark that has been used for the last 3 years....if you are willing to go and do the search and find, then you will see that is true.

Thank you for sharing those numbers!

12V at 15A for 60sec = 10800 Joules.

Burning one liter of the gas produced yields a mere 8511 Joules.

These "common benchmark" numbers clearly demonstrate the First Law of Thermodynamics, and prove the futility of trying to power an engine with it's own output.

Now... how about those torch plans? I understand the thing is supposed to be almost as good as a Henrob 2000.

 

Wow!! 1 litre per minute!!!!
Lets see, assuming a 2 litre engine cruising at 2000 RPM that's enough to run it for about 2 revs, the other 1998 revs are powered by petrol/diesel. No wonder no one can supply meaningful figures. The hydrogen is only supplying 0.1% of the total fuel, not enough to make any difference one way or the other.

Looks like you guys need to increase the hydrogen production by several orders of magnitude to make a real difference, but if you do, your current goes up by several orders of magnitude and by the time you are producing enough hydrogen to supply 10% of your fuel requirements you will be using all of your engine power just to produce the hydrogen with none left over to actually move the car anywhere. Still, it is one way to cut road accidents.

gee you are so quick to condemn and not to listen...the gas produced is not the only fuel the engine is using, all it does is assist the engine in it's combustion of the existing petrol or diesel it is using. As far as trying to fill the engine of 2 litres with fuel....you did forget that fuel is used at the existing fuel ratio of 14.7 units of air to one unit of fuel....so that one litre of gas would require an engine to suck in 14.7 litres of air first, and since you being so snarky as to mentioning how many revs it would run for, don't forget the engine still has the petrol connected and this HHO gas is only supplimenting the existing fuel and allowing that petrol..or diesel to ignite and burn better. Why don't you go do some research yourself before you come back and mock something you do not even understand....I have worked with alternative fuels for over 20 years, and as a mechanic and electrician I know what has worked. I may not be a university graduate, but then I did not need to be taught what I know, I learnt what I know naturally, and am often the one that other students studying engineering subjects, have come to seek answers to question that even their own lecturers did not have answers too.

I will list a few sites here for you to go look at and you just may learn to accept the truth of things, without being so snyde in your remarks.

 

oj you want numbers....

...any way 12 v at 15 amps...with an electrolyte is producing 1 litre of gas per minute..this is the most common result and the benchmark that has been used for the last 3 years....if you are willing to go and do the search and find, then you will see that is true. /quote]Thank you for sharing those numbers!

12V at 15A for 60sec = 10800 Joules.

Burning one liter of the gas produced yields a mere 8511 Joules.

These "common benchmark" numbers clearly demonstrate the First Law of Thermodynamics, and prove the futility of trying to power an engine with it's own output.

Now... how about those torch plans? I understand the thing is supposed to be almost as good as a Henrob 2000.

hey go read it all again, the gas is not the only thing producing energy to support the electrical power required...the engine is also burning petroleum as well, this gas is a additive..not the only fuel being used, so go add the energy that petrol produces to the whle equation, add the benifit of the gas, and deduct the inefficiencies of the ICE as awhole and go tell these people who are saving money when they fill up their vehicles at the local gas station, that they are fooling themselves. We are not trying to power an engine with it's own output, we are consuming energy as we go but saving on the most costly item....the cost of filling up the gas tank.

 

Please don't put words in our mouths! No one here said such a thing! We said "it takes more energy to produce this gas than is produced by burning this gas."

If you can't provide valid numbers then you are just repeating pleasant fairy tales.

"Heaps" is not a number. The energy required for electrolysis is well know and well documented. So to is the energy released when burning the resulting gas. More energy is required to produce the gas than is created when the gas burns. Repeating fairy tales will not change those numbers.

ok Thingmaker.....go tell these people they are dreaming...

I made the decision to personally put together the system and tried it out on my older car... Amazingly enough within the first week I had a 82% increase in MPG."

"Been looking for this! Shame on those greedy oil campanies who try to suppress this technology. In the next 10 years we will be using water as fuel. cheers!"

"Passed smog WITH NO catalytic inverter!"

"MY unit I have on my car is working. So far I have noticed a jump in mpg from 24ish mpg to 30ish mpg I am running it on a 2005 Nissan Sentra"

"I have been seeing up to 45 % better gas mileage"

"This is by far the best Water Power device I have seen!"

"Hey guys listen up... I have built my own HHO generator that produces HHO gas using only 3 amps of power. I've installed one on my car and ups my mileage by 30%... my next project is to set up my home generator to run on this gas."

"My Testamonial for my 2006 3/4 Ton Dodge cummins Turbo Diesel is: Stock MPG in town - 17.7 mpg After install MPG - 24.3 mpg" - (Straous 06-30-2008)

"2004 Subaru WRX (rated at 29mpg hwy), Driving 75mph, no a/c, usually I would get 27ish mpg, with hydroxy I am getting 35mpg" (Mike 07-02-2008)

"Did ours with a 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee, 122K miles on it.. I'm getting 8mpg more with HHO..I went from 16 to 24mpg. " (Mneste 06-30-2008)

"My Water4Gas unit I have on my car is working. So far I have noticed a jump in mpg from 24ish mpg to 30ish mpg I am running it on a 2005 Nissan Sentra. I also wrapped several layers of tinfoil around my Oxygen sensor, doing this will trick your O sensor into thinking it is to hot which will affect how much gas/oxygen mixture your injectors or carburetor will take." (J.R. 07-08-2008)

"I have a 73 ford F-100 with a 360 cid engine.It a real gas hog.I was getting exactly 10mpg.I tried one of the w4g units and then added 3 more.I am getting 15.7 mpg now.It runs much smoother.." Snapper 07-24-2008.

"Put one on my friends 95 Honda 4 cyl. Went from 19.4 to 29.7 mpg for an 53% increase. Now I'm jealous." Ridelong 07-26-2008.

 

Regarding stainless steel...

Steels with more than about 12% chromium will have superior resistance to oxidizing acids, but inferior resistance to reducing acids. Applicability of stainless will depend entirely on which electrolyte is used.

316 steel is another one of life's modern hyped-up items. (Metals are my other hobby.) The primary valid claim to fame of 316 is great resistance to sterilizing techniques used in hospitals. Salesmen decided this would be a good reason for us all to buy our cookware made from it, our body piercing jewelry made from it, and anything else they can sell us made from it.

since i am planning to use KOH for electrolyte, any recommendation for da electrodes? TQ!

 

oj you want numbers....apply 12 volts and 15 amps using a PWM to control the curent...thru 316L plates, simply because they last the longest....304 has been used effectively, but like some said...316 was made to survive..and it does..and we do not have to machine it..just cut plates out of sheet using a guillotine in a sheetmetal shop...any way 12 v at 15 amps...with an electrolyte is producing 1 litre of gas per minute..this is the most common result and the benchmark that has been used for the last 3 years....if you are willing to go and do the search and find, then you will see that is true. The evidence is there to be seen and we are not separating the oxygen and hydrogen via the anode and cathode, but simply letting the gas that is formed in the electrolysis process be used as is, uncompressed, and at normal atmospheric conditions. Go follow to ZeroFossilFuels site at YouTube and you will see what is happening out there.

with da right design... u can get more than that....


but hav not try yet....

 

Please don't put words in our mouths! No one here said such a thing! We said "it takes more energy to produce this gas than is produced by burning this gas."

If you can't provide valid numbers then you are just repeating pleasant fairy tales.

"Heaps" is not a number. The energy required for electrolysis is well know and well documented. So to is the energy released when burning the resulting gas. More energy is required to produce the gas than is created when the gas burns. Repeating fairy tales will not change those numbers.

and more people who know truth...

I feel like I hit the lottery"
2008/07/08 03:34 - Mike W.

Thank you Ozzie, for putting together such an awesome book! I'm consistantly getting 27-30 MPG highway now. (varies from hilly terrain in PA) I feel like I hit the lottery! One of the biggest arguments to this technology is that "there's no such thing as free energy" and my response to that is I'm not getting any "free energy", I'm simply rearranging the potential energy already availible on my vehicle to improve overall efficiency. For example, the fuel heater takes otherwise wasted heat energy and uses it to do something beneficial...expand the dense fuel molecules. That seems to help some skeptics overcome the disbelief.

Higher Performance - Jaguar XJ6"
2008/07/08 03:29 - A. C.

Ever since you installed the Water4Gas device, my engine has been running much more smoothly and efficiently. I drive a Jag XJ6 and my average miles per gallon has been 16-18 miles.

Now that the device is installed I am experiencing 19-24 miles per gallon fuller at least. This is a substantial fuel savings for me.

In addition I have more "pep" on my accelarations. It feels like I have a totally different car with more power and smoothness.

Thanks for your product. I am totally impressed and satisfied.

"Really amazing I got 37% better mileage"
2008/07/08 03:09 - P. M.

My first mileage results were really amazing I got 37% better mileage , in my 1985 Toyota P.U. truck it has a 22re fuel injected motor with 328000 miles Yes I have been driving this forever .

My mileage in the sommer is around 26 to 29 mpg , in the winter its around 23 to 24 mpg depending on how cold it is , the average is 25 mpg , with the water4gas unit installed I got 34 mpg amazing , this was not highway driving backroads with hills stop and go and warm up in the morning when it cold !

Also I noticed better power up hills in fifth gear.

Take Good Care Ozzie

"Mileage gain 48.5%!"
2008/07/08 03:07 - Bill Lang

My friend Don C. has a new hydrogen generator system in his 1993 Pontiac Grand AM. Went from 28 MPG to 41.6 MPG.

"Mileage gain 68%!"
2008/07/08 02:59 - N. G.

Wanted to report that my friend, an 85 year old mechanic, installed a Hydrogen-On-Demand system on my car and it went from 28 mpg on the highway to 47!

now notice that all these people are posting testimonials in the last couple of months...why is that...because this method of improving ones ride is finally taking off...regardless of what unbelievers like say about it..

get a life...and save some money doing so as well....and you will get a good hydrogen torch out of it as well..

I first starting using hydrogen torches back in the early 90's when I was working in metal fabrication shops back in the days of me being a fitter-turner toolmaker...and I never thought we would see the day we would be making gas in such low voltage, portable ways, right under the bonnet of your own car....

go figure...

 

since i am planning to use KOH for electrolyte, any recommendation for da electrodes? TQ!

for the electrodes...you can get 316L stainless in Malaysia, just look up in the phone book under stainless and you will see dozens of sheetmetal engineering shops you can ring and ask them if they carry 316L sheet stock. I have found workshops here in Singapore that carry it too..do not use those cheap stainless electrical cover plates the guys in the states aer using, that is so cheap....I worked in a electrical supply warehouse when I first left school back in the 70's and I recall all the buzz about stainless cover plates...they are just cheap 304 or less...and so thin...it is better to use 1 or 1.2 mm 316L. What size is your container. I am using a 10 inch water filter container with a screw off base...start with your container first and figure what you can fit inside. Then for your composition of cell..the best recommendation is to have nuetral plates between your cathode and anode, as apposed to alternating positive and negative plates like they do in acid batttery cells...any way give me buzz off line if you want...lets work togeather on our projects and teach guys on here how it is possible..ok...

 

for the electrodes...you can get 316L stainless in Malaysia, just look up in the phone book under stainless and you will see dozens of sheetmetal engineering shops you can ring and ask them if they carry 316L sheet stock. I have found workshops here in Singapore that carry it too..do not use those cheap stainless electrical cover plates the guys in the states aer using, that is so cheap....I worked in a electrical supply warehouse when I first left school back in the 70's and I recall all the buzz about stainless cover plates...they are just cheap 304 or less...and so thin...it is better to use 1 or 1.2 mm 316L. What size is your container. I am using a 10 inch water filter container with a screw off base...start with your container first and figure what you can fit inside. Then for your composition of cell..the best recommendation is to have nuetral plates between your cathode and anode, as apposed to alternating positive and negative plates like they do in acid batttery cells...any way give me buzz off line if you want...lets work togeather on our projects and teach guys on here how it is possible..ok...

i requested quotation for wrong size of plate SS 316 plate.....

no wander it's expensive.... thickness 12mm... LOL

i misplace the decimal point in my letter to the supplier.. LOL...

 

all it does is assist the engine in it's combustion of the existing petrol or diesel it is using. ...

this HHO gas is only supplimenting the existing fuel and allowing that petrol..or diesel to ignite and burn better.

This is certainly a more palatable explanation than the ones given so far. Can you elaborate? Specifically, can you discuss the chemical equations involved? Or provide a link doing so?

and more people who know truth...

Try an internet search on the exact phrase "argumentum ad populum" - testimonials do not provide substantive data. Numbers do.

I first starting using hydrogen torches back in the early 90's when I was working in metal fabrication shops back in the days of me being a fitter-turner toolmaker...

I am quite interested in this. Would you be willing to contribute your experience if I were to start a new thread dealing exclusively with torches?

 

dave,

haven't start building my generator yet.....

still missing KOH (i'm go to collect some from my friend's laboratory) and SS316 plates, maybe will substitute the plate with some unknown steel rulers......

1kg KOH only cost RM85++ or USD24++ So cheap....!
(RM3.5 = USD1; not sure what da latest exchange rate)