It can capture a positive H proton and send it to the cathode where 2 positive H protons combine and give you an extra H2 molecule.

Can you provide the balanced electrochemical equation? I don't understand what you mean by "extra."

BTW, A liter is a unit of volume. The term, "cubic liter" means nothing else to me. Do you attribute any other meaning to it?

John

 

Well, I am no expert in any of the areas necessary to carry out some of these necessary tests. equations? Hmmm, I have seen them some where but they are meaningless to me right now. I was thinking a good brute force pwm controlled pem generator may support what I was calling reverse electrolysis, a pem fuel cell.... when looking at the architecture of a pem fuel cell versus a pem electrolyzer... what's the difference? a couple tweeks and reverse the power supply and one can become the other. so I am in search of any portable means and wether or not it can be done to get 25 liters per minute... on demand of high grade pure hydrogen not mixed with oxygen at 100 psi... you think I'm asking for to much? Maybe, but I also have some intriguing ideas involving pem electrolysis and catalytic fusion in the same container...

but right now I was checking out pulse width modulation with current restrictive abilities and frequency adjustment, ah, not that I know anything about it and I could never build one, I was trying to figure out how they work because I am convinced there lives a certain resonate pulsed frequency that can cause dielectric failure in pure water on demand. I need a device that will test from 0 to 100,000 Hz and 10 to 250 volts and 0 to 30 amps. and very small pulses or big ones. and one other thing but I can't remember what it is right now.,, gotta go read again...

 

Well, I am no expert in any of the areas necessary to carry out some of these necessary tests. equations? Hmmm, I have seen them some where but they are meaningless to me right now.

And,

Maybe, but I also have some intriguing ideas involving pem electrolysis and catalytic fusion in the same container...

I was trying to figure out how they [ed: PWM] work because I am convinced there lives a certain resonate pulsed frequency that can cause dielectric failure in pure water on demand.

Looking at your statements, which suggest an apparent rejection of science and substitution with some sort of faith-based wishes, I can say with confidence that you are not going to get anywhere with your experiments. Or, to quote Wolfgang Pauli, "That isn't right. It's not even wrong."

Thus, I have to ask in terms of your obvious ecological awareness and concern, aren't you simply contributing more to the problem as you use electricity and other resources to a purposeless end?

John

 

Personally I would like to see some charts and graphs, in other words, real science. If the results are negative it is still worth doing, and if there turns out to be something there, well that is what science is about. It's the hear say and myth that turns most of the techie people off here.

Let's see if I can sum this up. There is NO such thing as HHO, as a molecule it can't exist. Similar molecules, such as HO (which is unstable) and H2O2 (unstable, but can exist for extended periods), do exist, but when you have 2 hydrogen and one oxygen you have water, period. Electrolysis always produces H2 and O2, H and O atoms are free radicals and are unstable, and will naturally bond with another atom on contact. All of this is high school chemistry.

Orthohydrogen and Parahydrogen do exist, but I'm not sure the terms apply in this case. We are talking spins, which to me suggests quantum mechanics. An earlier thread mentioned they apply in terms of cryogenic hydrogen.

If you want schematics this thread is working on it.

If you were to set up an experiment how would you do it? A flow meter for the gas produced, certainly. Freq counter and PWM, check. P-P voltage of the PWM waveform? A candle to burn the product? Temperature of the water and barometric pressure? What numbers would be needed for a decent experiment to produce data on?

If anyone finds such experiments with data maybe they could link it to this site, I think there is some interest.

 

HHO is code for hydrogen and oxygen mixed together in a 2 to 1 ratio. I've seen this before, in the form of aqualine and Brown's gas. You want some interesting reading google them, both are bogus, but with some interesting industrial applications. I still haven't figured out what keeps a perfect mix from exploding though, but evidently it is doable. Brown's gas had an unfortunate tendency to do just that when the gas cylinder hit a certain low pressure range (yes, they sold pressurized H2 and O2 in a high pressure cylinder!). Again, I still haven't figured out what kept it from exploding at high pressure, but evidently it was stable. Nowdays they electrolyze it on demand (go figure).

The HHO molecule is thrown out there because anyone without any chemistry background will buy into it, in other words it looks good, even if it can't exist.

I would like to see some numbers for the process though. Correct me if I'm wrong, but an electric car runs for pennies on the dollar compared to gas. We are using a round about method of converting a gas guzzler into an electric car, from what I can see.

i have some background in chemistry.... and i do believe it will work.....

 

On another forum a guy is making a water electrolysis circuit for his car.
I Googled HHO and found a video of a plumber with a huge electrical machine that makes HHO for him to solder copper pipes with. It is "fuelled" with at least one gallon of water.
So instead of buying propane gas he pays the electricity company.

Another video shows HHO slowly bubbling from an electrolysis circuit. It produces less gas than is needed for a candle flame. To run a heavy car?? The alternator is straining to make the tiny amount of HHO.

here's a simple design of HHO generator using stainless steel plate....

 

Please HELP!!!!!
I would like to have scamatic for the pwm.I built a hydrogen generator. I've seen many different ways to build pwm please give advice.
Thanks and keep up the good work
n2freepower

here's the diagram i got from the net.......

http://www.alt-nrg.org/pwm.html

or here if you want 2 buy the kit......

http://www.apogeekits.com/pulse_width_modulator.htm

 

OK, so why don't you monitor your fuel economy for a week without using it, and then for a week using it, doing the exact same kind of driving (daily commute, for example).

Then report back what you've observed.

since i'm from malaysia, we have quite a number of people trying this duplicate this HHO generator in large scale.....

there's one group had managed to achive 45km with 1 L petrol/gasoline since installing the HHO generator.

http://gohybridzclub.ning.com/

(btw, the contents of this web is in Malay language, lots of local slang)

 

The amount of air-fuel mixture going into a car's engine is enormous. A few bubbles of HHO won't make a noticeable difference unless the engine is tiny and is idling. Lawnmower engine?

LOL.... we are not looking for a few bubbles.... but a constant supply of HHO gases up to 2liter per minute......

 

Personally I would like to see some charts and graphs, in other words, real science. If the results are negative it is still worth doing, and if there turns out to be something there, well that is what science is about. It's the hear say and myth that turns most of the techie people off here.

Let's see if I can sum this up. There is NO such thing as HHO, as a molecule it can't exist. Similar molecules, such as HO (which is unstable) and H2O2 (unstable, but can exist for extended periods), do exist, but when you have 2 hydrogen and one oxygen you have water, period. Electrolysis always produces H2 and O2, H and O atoms are free radicals and are unstable, and will naturally bond with another atom on contact. All of this is high school chemistry.

Orthohydrogen and Parahydrogen do exist, but I'm not sure the terms apply in this case. We are talking spins, which to me suggests quantum mechanics. An earlier thread mentioned they apply in terms of cryogenic hydrogen.

If you want schematics this thread is working on it.

If you were to set up an experiment how would you do it? A flow meter for the gas produced, certainly. Freq counter and PWM, check. P-P voltage of the PWM waveform? A candle to burn the product? Temperature of the water and barometric pressure? What numbers would be needed for a decent experiment to produce data on?

If anyone finds such experiments with data maybe they could link it to this site, I think there is some interest.

when u remove the two (2) (subscript), you will get = 2H + O

hence the shorten form = 2HO or HHO......... LOL.......

 

here's a diagram for bubbler for HHO generator

 

when u remove the two (2) (subscript), you will get = 2H + O

hence the shorten form = 2HO or HHO......... LOL.......

I am sure you realize that in writing chemical equations, "2HO" means two "HO", not "HHO" or H20 (the "2" is subscript --can't get the latex math to work this morning). There is always a bit of a problem on forums because of the difficulty of adding subscripts. A number preceding a compound, ionic species, or radical is a multiplier for the whole compound, ionic species or radical that follows.

The characters "HHO" have been accepted as shorthand for a mixture of H2 and 02 in the ratio of 2:1; although, one could argue technically that it is just non-accepted version of the symbol for water.

For others:

One aspect often forgotten by advocates of HHO is its (namely hydrogen's) deleterious effects on the environment. It seems most of the advocates focus on what happens when one burns hydrogen and gets only water. Water is good is all that is considered, but that doesn't mean hydrogen itself is a non-pollutant. By analogy, consider ordinary table salt (NaCl), which is essential for life, but chlorine gas itself is a poison.

In fact, research reported from Stanford shows that hydrogen increases the effects of greenhouse gases and can lead to destruction of ozone in the upper atmosphere. Thus, the hydrogen you are producing may be as bad for the environment as outlawed aerosol propellants and greenhouse gases.
John

 

there's one group had managed to achive 45km with 1 L petrol/gasoline since installing the HHO generator.

These numbers mean nothing by themselves. They are out of context.

What vehicle was used? Under what conditions? What is the normal efficiency of the vehicle on gas alone? Was there a double blind test? Was the vehicle driven in the same way both with and without the magic gas?

LOL.... we are not looking for a few bubbles.... but a constant supply of HHO gases up to 2liter per minute......

Burning one litre of liquid petrolium produces roughly the same energy as burning 350 litres of H2 gas. You are indeed looking for "a few bubbles."

i have some background in chemistry.... and i do believe it will work.....

Does your background include any thermodynamics?

 

Let's cut through the hype, shall we? Have a look:

http://www.stardrivedevice.com/electrolysis.html

Note well that the price of electricity WILL continue to rise. The price of any potential petroleum substitute will continue to rise. Corn will be up by 20% by this time next year.

 

I am sure you realize that in writing chemical equations, "2HO" means two "HO", not "HHO" or H20 (the "2" is subscript --can't get the latex math to work this morning). There is always a bit of a problem on forums because of the difficulty of adding subscripts. A number preceding a compound, ionic species, or radical is a multiplier for the whole compound, ionic species or radical that follows.

The characters "HHO" have been accepted as shorthand for a mixture of H2 and 02 in the ratio of 2:1; although, one could argue technically that it is just non-accepted version of the symbol for water.

regarding the underlined sentences, i admitted that i had unintentionally made the mistake... guess that i was over excited with my HHO generator project...

For others:

One aspect often forgotten by advocates of HHO is its (namely hydrogen's) deleterious effects on the environment. It seems most of the advocates focus on what happens when one burns hydrogen and gets only water. Water is good is all that is considered, but that doesn't mean hydrogen itself is a non-pollutant. By analogy, consider ordinary table salt (NaCl), which is essential for life, but chlorine gas itself is a poison.

In fact, research reported from Stanford shows that hydrogen increases the effects of greenhouse gases and can lead to destruction of ozone in the upper atmosphere. Thus, the hydrogen you are producing may be as bad for the environment as outlawed aerosol propellants and greenhouse gases.
John

when u burn 2H + O u shud be getting back H2O....

although H2O vapour also being considered as green house gases, but it's less harmful becoz most of it will be condensed to form rain....

regarding the chlorine part of NaCl, HHO generator will last longer if we dun use NaCl...... someone did suggest using KOH or NaOH... it's difficult to buy KOH and NaOH off the counter in Malaysia... So, i'll be using soda bicarbonat instead....

 

These numbers mean nothing by themselves. They are out of context.

What vehicle was used? Under what conditions? What is the normal efficiency of the vehicle on gas alone? Was there a double blind test? Was the vehicle driven in the same way both with and without the magic gas?

it was a pajero 2500cc with carburetor engine. since i'm not the person giving the testimony, i'm also skeptical 'bout the result.

Burning one litre of liquid petrolium produces roughly the same energy as burning 350 litres of H2 gas. You are indeed looking for "a few bubbles."

Does your background include any thermodynamics?

yeap.... did studied thermodynamics...... since it has been years i read 'bout thermodynamics, i am not going to be a believer blindly unless i tested it.... therefore, i'm also in the midst of constructing my own HHO generator...

if i succeed, it will be a huge saving for me and those who believe... if it is a failure, i'll just turn the HHO generator to a HHO torch....

thomas edison has not only created the light bulb, he also found thousands of way that light bulb won't work......

think possitive! may the force be with us....!

 

Let's cut through the hype, shall we? Have a look:

http://www.stardrivedevice.com/electrolysis.html

Note well that the price of electricity WILL continue to rise. The price of any potential petroleum substitute will continue to rise. Corn will be up by 20% by this time next year.

instead of testing it with such a simple electrode, have u tested it with a plate? what's the size of the surface area of the small electrode? what happens if we increase the surface area?

let's explore before we said it won't work. btw, i guess that u never really build a HHO generator before, rite?

 

when u remove the two (2) (subscript), you will get = 2H + O

hence the shorten form = 2HO or HHO......... LOL.......

But you can't remove the 2 subscript, it doesn't work that way. Wishful thinking all the way. Also, when you say HHO you are implying a molecule, this is the way chemistry denotes molecules, hence the H2 and O2.

It is important to be precise when you are talking chemistry and chemical reactions, for much the same reasons we do the same thing in electronics. When you don't it confuses the issue, and confusion is the hallmark of fraud and con men.

Anytime I see the term HHO, or HOH, my Bull Corn detector goes off.

 

But you can't remove the 2 subscript, it doesn't work that way. Wishful thinking all the way. Also, when you say HHO you are implying a molicule, this is the way chemistry denotes molicules, hence the H2 and O2.

It is important to be precise when you are talking chemistry and chemical reactions, for much the same reasons we do the same thing in electronics. When you don't it confuses the issue, and confusion is the hallmark of fraud and conmen.

Anytime I see the term HHO, or HOH, my Bull Corn detector goes off.

let me say it loud......... the terminology of HHO definitely out of the chemistry context......

2H2O >> electrolysis >> 2H2 + O2

maybe for laymen, the terminology as " 2H2 + O2 generator " a bit long winded, hence we got HHO generator......

 

btw, Bill_Marsden


i am in the biomedical field.....

some how ended doing sports science....