Odd harmonics sound bad and even harmonics are musical but both are added distortion.

I'd just like to add:
Most Valve amps were push-pull, only really low power ones were single-ended, so they generated odd harmonics when driven into clipping.
A Valve amp, with greater linearity, and less feedback gradually runs out of gain as it approaches clipping, so the harmonics generated are of lower order.
A transistor amplifier, with more gain and more feedback, clips abruptly and generates odd harmonics extending to 9th and 11th an beyond.
The 3rd harmonic is an octave and a fifth above the fundamental, which is a concordant sound. 7th and higher odd harmonics are discordant.
It is possible to make a valve amp with a lot of gain and high feedback (but with four or more stages and a transformer inside the feedback loop would be a bit of a b***** to keep stable). It would generate high-order odd harmonics like a transistor amplifier.
I believe that a hi-fi amplifier should be "blameless" to quote Doug Self, and should produce as little distortion as possible. There's really no excuse for distortion products of a 1kHz signal to be above the noise floor. If users of said amplifier prefer the sound of a little bit of 2nd harmonic distortion, then they can add it with an effect unit.

 

LowQCab, are you confusing Even Order and Odd Order?
You wrongly said that "Symmetrical clipping creates Even Order harmonics" instead of correctly saying odd harmonics.
You wrongly said that "Non-Symmetrical clipping creates Odd-Order-Harmonics" instead of correctly saying even harmonics.

Odd harmonics sound bad and even harmonics are musical but both are added distortion.
I agree that old electronics cut highs and lows that some people say "sounds warm".
Some people like the old sounds that had added even harmonics and no highs and lows (like an old AM radio?).

I looked up the definition of "deep and rich sounds" and vocabulary.com said "Resonant".
A lousy old speaker fed from an old tubes amplifier sounded boomy and resonant because the damping factor was poor.

True hifi sounds dull and dry to some old people.

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Yep, I got it backwards,
it's been quite a few decades .......
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IanO, I made a post titled " Discussion of the musicians preference of the older type instruments "sound quality". Patrick Malarkey

 

As a previous member already stated, there is no such thing as a clean natural sound.

The instrument itself will have its own "colour" from the strings, body, and the way the instrument is played.
Then there is the acoustics of the recording room. The microphone will add its own "distortion".

If you prefer the "older" sound instead of "modern" recordings did you know that in order to cut vinyl master discs the cutting head required immense frequency compensation otherwise the low frequency waves on the record would occupy huge excursions? During playback, a record player preamplifier has to restore all the bass sound that was attenuated in the recording process.

 

Your 11 posts are unlikely to be deleted. They will be preserved for posterity.
The reason for deleting email addresses from forum content is to prevent web crawlers and scrapers from harvesting email addresses and spamming you into oblivion. It's nothing personal -- it's just good business.

It's okay, but as often as I change my email addresses I'm not really worried. Unless google starts giving out my IP number, things won't get too awfully worse than CBD advertisers.

 

This post backs up post #25.
Those older amplifiers certainly DID deliver a whole lot of distortion, which was very much a part of their "sound". At one time I did a setup for a band and used a "HIFI" amplifier claimed to have "no distortion. It did reproduce records and tapes very well.
That sound was totally unacceptable to the band, and certainly it was not very similar to their best performances. The sound that made the music included an amplifier driven into distortion and and having very strange frequency response. Duplicating that response would be a major challenge, so what I did for their amplifiers was fix te power supplies and get rid of the hum.
As others have commented, and are totally correct, music producing amplifiers are not at all low distortion nor HiFi bt any standard.
THe only part that is really bad is the use of a noise gate to simulate a drum. THAT is offensive!!

 

I dislike hearing a compressor that has an obvious attack time producing a distorted burst that is too loud for a moment before it reduces the levels. When the loud burst is gone then the background noise ramps up as the compressor gain goes back to normal.

 

I dislike hearing a compressor that has an obvious attack time producing a distorted burst that is too loud for a moment before it reduces the levels. When the loud burst is gone then the background noise ramps up as the compressor gain goes back to normal.

No compressors in that day, none at all. Lots of clipping and limiting, but no compression. AND Dolby seems to eliminate at least what I can hear of the action that AG complains about.
AND, with most live performances, "background noise" is not audible. In many venues, any such noise is 80dB below the people screaming.

 

As a previous member already stated, there is no such thing as a clean natural sound.

The instrument itself will have its own "colour" from the strings, body, and the way the instrument is played.
Then there is the acoustics of the recording room. The microphone will add its own "distortion".

If you prefer the "older" sound instead of "modern" recordings did you know that in order to cut vinyl master discs the cutting head required immense frequency compensation otherwise the low frequency waves on the record would occupy huge excursions? During playback, a record player preamplifier has to restore all the bass sound that was attenuated in the recording process.

Yes you're correct, that there's really no such as natural sound, but there is pleasant sound and that's what I kind of hoped would come from more linear FET amplification.
There has been a development I'd like to put up as a thread/post, about my 3 way acoustic suspension speakers. They use an aircore choke on the woofer (.65mH) and a 10uF capacitor on the tweeter. The mid-range is driven by a connection from the choke-woofer joint, and the other mid-range connection is to the capcitor-tweeter joint. As intended there is a substantial current, enough to get good midrange sounds that is polarity sensitive. By that I mean of the two midrange leads, witch lead goes to the + and which to the - of the hook-ups on the midrange driver. I tested that crossover system with another pair of speakers, with the exact same results, better sound!

 

The art and science of electro-acoustic amplification and reproduction is much more complicated than anyone can imagine.

Firstly, there is the power amplifier itself and how it responds to different loads wired to its output.

The loudspeaker as a transducer cannot be analyzed without taking into account the speaker enclosure. The speaker cabinet plays a significant role in the entire speaker system.

The loudspeaker itself has its own frequency response. Of particular importance is the natural resonance of the speaker which occurs at the low end of the frequency spectrum. When mounted in an enclosure this resonant frequency rises.

A speaker cross-over is a can of worms. Every cross-over introduces phase distortion. That is the nature of the beast.

The bottom line is, test every amplifier-speaker combination you please. Whichever one you choose as being the best is entirely your own psycho-acoustic preference.

 

Yes you're correct, that there's really no such as natural sound, but there is pleasant sound and that's what I kind of hoped would come from more linear FET amplification.
There has been a development I'd like to put up as a thread/post, about my 3 way acoustic suspension speakers. They use an aircore choke on the woofer (.65mH) and a 10uF capacitor on the tweeter. The mid-range is driven by a connection from the choke-woofer joint, and the other mid-range connection is to the capcitor-tweeter joint. As intended there is a substantial current, enough to get good midrange sounds that is polarity sensitive. By that I mean of the two midrange leads, witch lead goes to the + and which to the - of the hook-ups on the midrange driver. I tested that crossover system with another pair of speakers, with the exact same results, better sound!

Certainly an L-C crossover has quite a bit of phase shift, mostly because of the "L" and the "C", which is exactly what I would expect. So certainly phase-polarity matters quite a bit.

 

"" ....... but there is pleasant sound and that's what
I kind of hoped would come from more linear FET amplification. ""

"Pleasant" Sound ????
The Amplifier, if it is a truly High-Fidelity design,
will not alter the sound in any way,
unless you over-drive it in to "Clipping".

Amplifiers do have very definite differences in how they handle "Clipping".
Tube-Amplifiers tend to not be quite as obnoxious when Clipping as
compared to the usual Class-A-B Transistor-Amplifier,
but if You are running your Amplifier into Clipping on a regular basis,
You need a more powerful Amplifier,
so the type of Amplifier is a moot point,
unless You are purposefully running your Amp into Clipping because
You like the distortion that it creates.

If You are referring to "normal" listening levels,
the Class-A-B Transistor-Amp wins hands-down, every time, over other designs.

Passive, high-power Crossovers, built in to the Speakers can be very problematic
when it comes to nailing-down where some particular Distortion is coming from.

If You are a seriously discerning listener, You need to be running
an Active-Electronic-Crossover and 2, 3, or 4, Stereo-Class-A-B Transistor-Amplifiers.
The difference will be readily noticeable,
but possibly not,
that is, if You haven't spent some serious time handling your "Room-Acoustics".

If You haven't taken care of your Room-Acoustics, NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.
This is easily 50% of your sound quality, before You even start looking elsewhere.

The next item to get right is then the Speakers, and the Cabinets they are installed in.

The Electronics almost don't matter by comparison to the 2 above items.
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"" ....... but there is pleasant sound and that's what
I kind of hoped would come from more linear FET amplification. ""

"Pleasant" Sound ????
The Amplifier, if it is a truly High-Fidelity design,
will not alter the sound in any way,
unless you over-drive it in to "Clipping".

Amplifiers do have very definite differences in how they handle "Clipping".
Tube-Amplifiers tend to not be quite as obnoxious when Clipping as
compared to the usual Class-A-B Transistor-Amplifier,
but if You are running your Amplifier into Clipping on a regular basis,
You need a more powerful Amplifier,
so the type of Amplifier is a moot point,
unless You are purposefully running your Amp into Clipping because
You like the distortion that it creates.

If You are referring to "normal" listening levels,
the Class-A-B Transistor-Amp wins hands-down, every time, over other designs.

Passive, high-power Crossovers, built in to the Speakers can be very problematic
when it comes to nailing-down where some particular Distortion is coming from.

If You are a seriously discerning listener, You need to be running
an Active-Electronic-Crossover and 2, 3, or 4, Stereo-Class-A-B Transistor-Amplifiers.
The difference will be readily noticeable,
but possibly not,
that is, if You haven't spent some serious time handling your "Room-Acoustics".

If You haven't taken care of your Room-Acoustics, NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.
This is easily 50% of your sound quality, before You even start looking elsewhere.

The next item to get right is then the Speakers, and the Cabinets they are installed in.

The Electronics almost don't matter by comparison to the 2 above items.
.
.
.

IanO, that pleasant sound is a personal matter, not technical in any sense. So is that "better or good" sound from my 3 way speakers. I've called the midrange connection a "phase-driven midrange" for lack of more descriptive words, and wonder if the distinct vocals are just out of phase with the bsss/treble, or does the crossover circuit place a non-linear load on a linear amplifier? Malvino wrote such causes harmomics to appear in a linear amp's output. So one last time, does Malvino know what he's saying?

 

Maybe the midrange speaker you like to hear is more sensitive (louder) than the woofer and tweeter.

 

Maybe the midrange speaker you like to hear is more sensitive (louder) than the woofer and tweeter.

? The vocals are more distinct, intsruments like bass guitar are prominent and some of the higher frequencies have more of a ring sound rather than a crisp sound. All in all, preferrable but God only knows?

 

Now I recall an article that I saw in a MUCH OLDER Radio/electronics magazine about breaking in a replacement speaker so that it would have a "more mellow" sound. It involved driving the speaker with a mains frequency voltage to soften the cone, effectively reducing the higher frequency response. So I guess " that pleasant sound is a personal matter", and that some folks like muddy sound. Not me.

 

Muddy sound? When I was 12 years old in 1957 I carried around a portable AM radio. It was one of the first transistor radios.
3 years later I discovered FM radio and never listened to muddy sounds again.

 

Now I recall an article that I saw in a MUCH OLDER Radio/electronics magazine about breaking in a replacement speaker so that it would have a "more mellow" sound. It involved driving the speaker with a mains frequency voltage to soften the cone, effectively reducing the higher frequency response. So I guess " that pleasant sound is a personal matter", and that some folks like muddy sound. Not me.

The technique is quite common in high-end professional audio. A loudspeaker does not have its correct Thiele Small parameters until it has been ”run in”!
(Anyone remember people putting cardboard signs is their new cars that said “running in, please pass”?)

 

? The vocals are more distinct, intsruments like bass guitar are prominent and some of the higher frequencies have more of a ring sound rather than a crisp sound. All in all, preferrable but God only knows?

Baranek’s law?

 

It's okay, but as often as I change my email addresses I'm not really worried. Unless google starts giving out my IP number, things won't get too awfully worse than CBD advertisers.

I guess you've never been bothered by the folks who want to make parts you don't have bigger.