Probably a better rule to pass would have been a requirement that all the products had to have clear and accurate labeling to clearly describe their charging and powering requirements. Demanding truth and clarity in marketing is a lot more reasonable than passing some technical requirement which will certainly impact both cost and reliability of the products.

 

For reference, here's the official text on the European Parliaments's web-site:-
"Regardless of their manufacturer, all new mobile phones, tablets, digital cameras, headphones and headsets, handheld videogame consoles and portable speakers, e-readers, keyboards, mice, portable navigation systems, earbuds and laptops that are rechargeable via a wired cable, operating with a power delivery of up to 100 Watts, will have to be equipped with a USB Type-C port."

I foresee lots of reliability issues with trying to get 100W through a tiny USB-c port.

The Type-C PD specification accommodates up to 240W.

 

The Type-C PD specification accommodates up to 240W.

I think they're pushing their luck.
The spec for sockets seems to be a maximum contact resistance of 50mΩ. I have seen different specifications as to the number of pins in parallel, but the maximum is four. In an ideal world each pin would carry 1.25A. Each contact therefore dissipates 78mW and there are eight of them. Total power 625mW.
The device is about as big as a TO220 power transistor, and they get warm dissipating half a watt, and they are metal all the way to the the chip. No plastic insulators to impede the heat flow.
In a less-than-ideal world the current is not shared equally, one or more pins lose contact etc. Do the contact springs lose tension when they get hot?
Is the system capable of detecting that one or more pins is not making contact and negotiating a lower maximum current? Or does it negotiate itself into a fire?
Wouldn't it be so much better to have fewer, larger pins with better contact resistance? Best practice engineering is NOT to parallel pins in a connector to increase current capacity, due to the unpredicitability of current sharing.
But it will be charging a lithium battery, and so many of those in electric bikes have started fires, so let's just blame the battery and hope than no-one notices that the connector started the fire.

 

I certainly hope that the first hundred fires started by the dumb choice can be discovered and put out before injuries or property damage become extensive. It appears that money has spoken and wisdom could not outbid greed. That is too often how it works.

 

The Type-C PD specification accommodates up to 240W.

ESR PD spec is up to 50v 5A, but it's implemented as 48v 5A.

 

I was being funny.
The idea of saving power comes from having a charger that can negotiate up a higher supply voltage, which means less amps, so less waste. Or, up the voltage and amps so you can get more watts into the device. It's a oxy-moron of sorts idea when we talk about ways to save on energy.

The you see the irony of it all. You need C-PD and higher voltages because the devices have grown into power hungry hogs. The net in that math is MORE POWER with a smidge better efficiency in transfer. Again, such mandates make no sense when you unwrap the package it came in (the problem), etc. The problem is power demand, and these silly mandates do nothing to help solve the power problem. But hey, at least now everyone in EU will own a cable that has USB-C on one end.



There's a TV/stream show somewhere, about that issue. Everything is made to be throw away, just about everything. The landfills will be just as full with C cable garbage as it was before the mandate.

The makers will make their USB-C crud with cheapest materials and cheapest process they can. Quality vs low quality stuff equates into consumer cost, but it will all fail at some point and will all end up in the garbage.

Using just USB-C will not solve the waste problem. And, most devices supply a cable, hence the math says if I keep all the cables for re-use (a bunch of C cables), this does not mean they don't end up in the trash. It will all goto trash eventually, because when I already have 3 C cables and I get another device that comes with another C cable, 1 of those 4 will be tossed in the trash.

Hi,

Well, it's an attempt to reduce the physical waste, but the future changes fast so there's no telling where this will lead anyway.
However, I still much rather have USB C ports on all phones then a mix of micro, mini, lightning, and C. One port for all is best regardless. That will mean we should be able to use a C charger on all phones eventually.
If that changes in the future, that's life. My "Future Unpredictability" theorem covers that (can't predict the future with absolute certainty given only what we know today).

 

As far as the cost associated with the mandatory change:

5 volt-only devices require changing the USB connector to a USB C and adding two ⅛W resistor – i.e., the change costs virtually nothing.

As far as phones go,"Quick Charge" has been a standard since 2014 and is used by most phones today. Like USB C PD, this is a multi-voltage protocol, and is supported by USB C PD. Aside from Samsung Note 7 phones having an issue with bursting into flames (caused by a deficient battery design, not high rate charging), I haven't heard of a plethora of phones bursting into flames.

 

Well, it's an attempt to reduce the physical waste,

I mentioned it before, ALL of it ends up in the trash, going to everything USB-C ESR PD does not change that fact.
The argument that is helps reduce e-waste is a fallacy of biblical proportions.
And as ESR PD proliferates even further it will put more strain on power sources and grid transmission.
So in essence, shooting self in own foot can be predicted with extroadinary probability.

As far as the cost associated with the mandatory change:
5 volt-only devices require changing the USB connector to a USB C and adding two ⅛W resistor – i.e., the change costs virtually nothing.
As far as phones go,"Quick Charge" has been a standard since 2014 and is used by most phones today. Like USB C PD, this is a multi-voltage protocol, and is supported by USB C PD. Aside from Samsung Note 7 phones having an issue with bursting into flames (caused by a deficient battery design, not high rate charging), I haven't heard of a plethora of phones bursting into flames.

Forcing the change does nothing to curb e-waste, so the cost to change is just extra costs for no good reason.
It's not about existing phones. When ESR PD of 240w is on every wart you plug in, the device makers will make their stuff bigger with ability to attain the low charge times for their big batt devices, hence making the power (energy) problem even worse.

Why not just force every device to be plugged directly in to US 120vac or UK 240vac and skip the wart crud? This way all devices can have access to approx 1800watts from the wall. So now you elimiante all the wart e-waste completely.

Mandate after mandate, and one day you'll be buying fixed monthly allowance of kWh from the govt.

Probably better to wage the fight to the folks who create power, transmit it, and deliver it. The consumer-end mandates are pointless.

Wouldn't it be so much better to have fewer, larger pins with better contact resistance?

The "one cable" idea was good, and also bad. Pros & Cons.

 

Why not just force every device to be plugged directly in to US 120vac or UK 240vac and skip the wart crud? This way all devices can have access to approx 1800watts from the wall. So now you elimiante all the wart e-waste completely.

Just a bit tricky to get the 5mm clearance/creepage distances!

 

I mentioned it before, ALL of it ends up in the trash, going to everything USB-C ESR PD does not change that fact.
The argument that is helps reduce e-waste is a fallacy of biblical proportions.
And as ESR PD proliferates even further it will put more strain on power sources and grid transmission.
So in essence, shooting self in own foot can be predicted with extroadinary probability.

Hi,

Well I can't argue too hard on this because things change so fast now. What is cutting edge tech today is landfill tomorrow (ha ha, in fact ha ha ha). Maybe it will work out for a time period, then that too will drop by the wayside as they say.
One thing we can depend on I think, and that is that time will tell.
I would not be surprised if some products that came out started to require two USB C connectors to power up.

So all that aside, how do you feel about using the C connector itself (regardless of protocol or efficiency) on most products like phones and laptops and stuff like that? Don't you think it's better than having a host of priority connectors out there? What you think?

 

Why not just force every device to be plugged directly in to US 120vac or UK 240vac and skip the wart crud? This way all devices can have access to approx 1800watts from the wall. So now you elimiante all the wart e-waste completely.

I must have missed your post about plugging everything into the wall instead of a wall wart.
That would make things difficult for manufacturers. Each device would have to have the equivalent of a DC wall wart built inside, which would make it bigger and fatter.
Maybe you changed your stance on this though.

 

Hi,

Well I can't argue too hard on this because things change so fast now. What is cutting edge tech today is landfill tomorrow (ha ha, in fact ha ha ha). Maybe it will work out for a time period, then that too will drop by the wayside as they say.
One thing we can depend on I think, and that is that time will tell.
I would not be surprised if some products that came out started to require two USB C connectors to power up.

So all that aside, how do you feel about using the C connector itself (regardless of protocol or efficiency) on most products like phones and laptops and stuff like that? Don't you think it's better than having a host of priority connectors out there? What you think?

I think your points are well understood by everyone except those writing the silly mandates.
I mention devices getting bigger to get more power, but these days it's not that way. When solid state batteries come to market, the existing app-ill phones of today will carry perhaps 2x the batt capacity with ss batts, so now the device needs 2x longer to charge on a ESR PD wart. So the problem becomes circular in nature and it keeps spinning by tossing money into the ring, all paid for by the consumer. The 8cent kWh then becomes the 13cent kWh and you'll be mandated (aka controlled) as to when you can have those kWh's.

Let's run the math. Let's say there are 20mil charge cables in UK right now, all sorts of ends on them, and 12% of those go into trash every year.
Ok, wave the magic wand and now all those 20mil cables are USB-C on at least one end.
Let's run the new math, let's say there are 20mil USB-C charge cables in UK right now, and 12% of those go into trash every year.
Yep, problem not solved.

The free market dictates if USB-C will prevail of not. You don't need C to implement ESR PD or some other charging protocl stuff. No different than VHS beating Betamax, or CD beating out DAT, cmos video chips beating out chemical based Polaroid, or nVidia crushing Intel.

I must have missed your post about plugging everything into the wall instead of a wall wart.
That would make things difficult for manufacturers. Each device would have to have the equivalent of a DC wall wart built inside, which would make it bigger and fatter.
Maybe you changed your stance on this though.

Ever look inside a std USB-A 5v tiny cube wart, the stuff inside is already small. ESR PD is implemented with small SMD sized IC's. I am in the boat of Engineered To Work Right, which means if it's a problem now then there's a solution for it, and the problem you mention is a 'micro' problem with relatively easy solution. Perhaps not done in USB-C port, but there are connectors that have two pins that are bigger and isolated from the comm pins to that the two pins can carry high AC voltage with plenty of copper for amps. It can be engineered, etc.

 

I think your points are well understood by everyone except those writing the silly mandates.
I mention bigger devices needing more power, but these days it's not that way. When solid state batteries come to market, the existing app-ill phones of today will carry perhaps 2x the batt capacity with ss batts, so now the device needs 2x longer to charge on a ESR PD wart. So the problem becomes circular in nature and it keeps spinning by tossing money into the ring, all paid for by the consumer. The 8cent kWh then becomes the 13cent kWh and you'll be mandated (aka controlled) as to when you can have those kWh's.

Well we can only go with what we got so far. Is there any perfect solution?
A very long time ago I used to play chess with this chess master. In the game of chess when you make a move, there are good points about it and bad points. He always used to say, "You can't have everything".
Today it's pretty nutty though. It's hard to figure out if something is going to be better or not, or even worse. We can only wait and see what happens.

Do you have a viable solution to all of this?

 

Today it's pretty nutty though. It's hard to figure out if something is going to be better or not, or even worse. We can only wait and see what happens.

Do you have a viable solution to all of this?

So I ask you, a solution to what problem?
On the energy side, mandate the efficiency part of the problem. like "Energy-Star" in US. You however don't get great gains in this area of the power problem.
It's no different than fuel efficiency mandates for automotive makers.
If you mandate from wall to batt has to be 85% minimum then it does not matter how it gets from wall to batt.
Tesla garage chargers are horrible between wall and batt, something like 52% efficient.

On the e-waste side, make it easier for consumer to recycle or swap out old for new at no cost (except perhaps a return shipping cost, mailed by consumer). RMA processes need to be made easier and better for consumers, perhaps create a standard for RMA and have a single RMA site where all vendors are in a drop-down list or searchable, a kinda 1-shop RMA site making it easy for consumers to recycle the old crud and get a new one. Then mandate that charge cables and warts must have a 10yr non-limited warranty. e-waste problem solved, and yes the consumer will still pay more.

The EU mandate framed in an "e-waste" problem sounds to me like the EU has failed at implementing successful recycling programs. Govt fails on one thing, so then make a consumer-end mandate to "fix" the continuing failure of the other. Basically nothing is fixed and consumer pays more. If the consumer has to pay more, then the bloody mandate/program/change better work.

 

This thread has become pointless. No minds will be changed here not matter what facts are presented.

 

This thread has become pointless. No minds will be changed here not matter what facts are presented.

Whilst no politicians will change their minds, that doesn't make the thread pointless.
We have here the views of some seriously good engineers, at least as clever as the people who designed the standard, but with much less bias, industrial or political.

 

but with much less bias, industrial or political.

No, there are very strong biases here, by people who can't see beyond their own use cases.

 

This is a great thread, hopefully will sit in Way Back Machine for years, so we can come back to it in about 5yrs to see if any e-waste problem was fixed or not.

I myself find the mandate to be pointless. Others obviously do not.

Everything will be USB-C port, until some day it won't be, new mandate, rinse and repeat.

Cheerio.

 

No, there are very strong biases here, by people who can't see beyond their own use cases.

Biased on which side, for or against the EU mandate, or maybe just something related to the C port or ESR PD stuff?

 

No, there are very strong biases here, by people who can't see beyond their own use cases.

This thread has become pointless. No minds will be changed here not matter what facts are presented.

Thus is the way of the human condition. Simply put, conversation. There's nobody forcing you to participate but because conversation moves in different directions sometimes, you may find something interesting that comes up later.

It always boggles me why some member in forums seem to insist on judging threads as to their usefulness or lack thereof.
Relax and let people talk it out, that's what people do. Brainstorming, if you will. If you really hate it you can always move to another thread and discuss whatever is being discussed there.

By participating in this thread I myself gained a little more insight into the issues we had been talking about. I find that to be the case many, many times in forums. Sometimes just talking things out allows us to get a different perspective and actually learn something new along the way. Try enjoying the experience and see where it leads.