Help me identify this motors wires and how to drive them.

Thread Starter

q12x

Joined Sep 25, 2015
609
I know I took these motors from an Apple product but i dont remember if it was an iMac or some other name they have. I remember it was a monitor and a PC all in one package.
Actually they are not simple motors but they are turbine motors.
- Help me identify this motors wires and how to drive them:
20210517_193248.jpgScreenshot_3.jpg
On the bottom turbine, it says:
DC BRUSHLESS
MODEL BFB0712VHD
APPLE P/N 603-8690 (on my model)
DC12V 0.50A
I tried to figure it out myself and the first thing I tried was to see if it is a bipolar motor, meaning, checking the wires if they are in pairs. My ohmmeter give me a couple of k ohms on each pair of wires that i checked, sign that I was checking some components on the board of the motor and not it's coils. I really have no idea how to make it move. I've also played with 5V on all the wires but absolutely nothing moves. My best guess it might have a pulse driver system on some of its wires.
If you encounter these turbines motors and you happen to know how to drive them and test them, please tell me. I really need one to build something important to me.
Also important, is the fact that all 3 of them, are having the same wires color:
(starting from left, soldered on it's board): 1-brown, 2-black&gray, 3-black, 4-gray.
Thank you !
 

Thread Starter

q12x

Joined Sep 25, 2015
609
@q12x That fan is both Tach and PWM. Wire color matters- hard to tell in the photo.
Thank you ! What is Tach ?
I know is hard to tell in the photo, that's why i describe the wires color myself. I will describe them again: (starting from left, soldered on it's board): 1-brown, 2-black&gray, 3-black, 4-gray.
Also, can it not be modified? bypassing some components on its board and controlling directly the coils? Resoldering the coils endings to the existing pads and command them from an external driver? I really dont need the speed sensor that usually is present on the board and some other fancy stuff that is in my way and making life harder than it should be.
 
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Thread Starter

q12x

Joined Sep 25, 2015
609
I have an interesting circuit to make. I want to power each of the 4 wires. One by one, or simultaneously or in pairs, 2 by 2, or 3 and 1. I will test the shit out of it until I will GUESS it's mechanics. Basically I will make a TEST board for this particular motor and feed impulses through my (arduino) UNO R3 that i recently got.
My plan is to use 4 Transistors BD139 for each wire of the motor. I think the black wires are the ground wires but I expect surprises. That's why I will test everything.
My circuit I'm thinking is simple but complex in the same time. You will see why. I need 3 states of the same wire. Let's say the brown wire. #1 state when is powered to 12V through my T1. #2 state when is sent to ground. #3 state when is neutral, or in air,or NC, not connected to anything. I'm talking about the same brown wire. I imagine 2 transistors per wire; T1a for +V and another T1b for gnd. And for #3 NC state, both transistors are off, no signal on their bases. Both bases of the transistors go to 10k ohm and then commanded through 2 wires from my UNO R3 outputs. This is my plan.
I just read about my UNO R3 and it has "14 digital input/output pins (of which 6 can be used as PWM outputs)".
So, in total will be 8 transistors,after all. 2per wire. 4 to V+and 4 to gnd. The 4 ones for V+ can oscillate at 20khz for the PWM to drive the motor, from what I understand it is the optimal frequency for driving. Having only 6 (and not 8) PWM pins, sucks. But I think I can ground the other pair of 4 transistors through normal I/O pins. Correct? I'm not very sure but I think it should work. So in the end I will have 4 PWM pins to oscilate or simply power the V+ and 4 I/O pins to simply sink to gnd. If I think a little bit about it, it may be possible they inserted only 6 PWM pins to drive a single 6 wire motor through them. Though I've seen motors with 20 wires on them as well, from old DVD's I think, or hard drives. Eh well, the 6 PWM pins mystery solved.
If you have any thoughts for improvements or corrections, please tell me about it. It will take some time until I will build all of it.
Also, you can suggest to me the most common frequency of the PWM or which signal to send to which wire and to how many.
This is actually the hard part of the experimentation. I am completely in the dark on the "most used" ways of driving motors.
I mean, I have some elementary knowledge , like the bipolar driving motors but... is still elementary.
Thank you.
 
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ericgibbs

Joined Jan 29, 2010
12,901
hi q12x,
Thank you ! What is Tach ? == Tachometer
E
Clip:
Tachometers and Speed Transmitters require a permanently mounted speed sensors that observe a target on the machines rotating shaft. Several types of sensors are available including Proximity, Hall Effect (magnetic), Optical and Laser. Permanently mounted systems usually use a Proximity or Hall Effect type sensor.
 

Thread Starter

q12x

Joined Sep 25, 2015
609
hi q12x,
Thank you ! What is Tach ? == Tachometer
E
Clip:
Tachometers and Speed Transmitters require a permanently mounted speed sensors that observe a target on the machines rotating shaft. Several types of sensors are available including Proximity, Hall Effect (magnetic), Optical and Laser. Permanently mounted systems usually use a Proximity or Hall Effect type sensor.
hi @ericgibbs
Yes, I just read and illuminate myself about it as well, before you, but you provided a much more in depth explanation than what i fugitively read. Thank you ! Very well enunciated.
 

Thread Starter

q12x

Joined Sep 25, 2015
609
And here is the circuit I plan to build.
I hope 10k ohm on the base of each BD139 transistor is good enough to drive fully those wires. I didnt calculate anything, I just put that value there by eye. The motor itself will draw 500mA, it says on its sticker from its case.
The arduino output "must" be 5V for each pin so 5/0.01 (10mA) = 500 ohm so... if I put 1k resistor instead of 10k that I initially thought, will also be fine, right? 1/1000 = 0.005 (5mA) to open the base. It just crossed my mind to do a little math right now after I draw the circuit and before posting here.
Please correct me if you see anything wrong. Im not that bright with math, im an artist, remember?
I hope everything here is correct.
Testing board for unknown 4 wire motor .jpg
 

Sensacell

Joined Jun 19, 2012
2,821
You are overthinking this motor to death.

It has its own internal brain that does the coil commutation, most likely powered by DC 12V on the red and black wires.

Applying random voltages and polarities will likely destroy this internal driver, bricking your fan.
 

Thread Starter

q12x

Joined Sep 25, 2015
609
You are overthinking this motor to death.

It has its own internal brain that does the coil commutation, most likely powered by DC 12V on the red and black wires.

Applying random voltages and polarities will likely destroy this internal driver, bricking your fan.
I already test that red and black wires, nothing moves.
If you think im overthinking it, then please, you come with an easier solution. This is the only way I can think of to make it work. Truly, I don't know other ways. I also have these motors for 10 years. I want to see them running. I dont care how, but just make them work.
Hopefully, my random voltages didnt break anything inside. I will see after testing.
 

anniel747

Joined Oct 18, 2020
1,034
I already test that red and black wires, nothing moves.
If you think im overthinking it, then please, you come with an easier solution. This is the only way I can think of to make it work. Truly, I don't know other ways. I also have these motors for 10 years. I want to see them running. I dont care how, but just make them work.
Hopefully, my random voltages didnt break anything inside. I will see after testing.
Connect the PWM.
 

Sensacell

Joined Jun 19, 2012
2,821
Try connecting the red and black to 12V, connect the remaining wires to 5V through 4.7k resistors.

It might spin, if it doesn't, monitor the voltages on the wires while twiddling the rotor with a finger, if you see pulses, that's the tachometer wire.
 

Thread Starter

q12x

Joined Sep 25, 2015
609
mister @Sensacell thank you for your response !
I did exactly as you told me. Here is what I got.
I connected the brown and black to 12V.
Ive connected the gray wire to a separate 5V through a 10k. I put the ground on both the black wire and to the b&g (black and gray) wire. Nothing happened.
Ive inversed, and put the b&g wire to 5V through a 10k . I put the ground on both the black wire and to the gray wire. Nothing happened.
Of course Ive used the 5V ground all the time even when I connected 2 grounds toghether on the same black wire (the ground from 12V and 5V).
Nothing happened.
Ive monitored the tachometer wire first the gray wire, then the b&g wire. Both are giving me about the same voltages when I rotate the rotor. the gray is fluctuating in order of 100-300mV and the b&g wire is fluctuating in order of 10-70mV.
I can not spindle too fast because the case is in the way, but i can spindle it a bit.
Anything else I should try?
 

BobaMosfet

Joined Jul 1, 2009
1,768
Thank you ! What is Tach ?
I know is hard to tell in the photo, that's why i describe the wires color myself. I will describe them again: (starting from left, soldered on it's board): 1-brown, 2-black&gray, 3-black, 4-gray.
Also, can it not be modified? bypassing some components on its board and controlling directly the coils? Resoldering the coils endings to the existing pads and command them from an external driver? I really dont need the speed sensor that usually is present on the board and some other fancy stuff that is in my way and making life harder than it should be.
Sorry for the delay in response. Tach - tachometer- ie. speed of fan. it generates 1 or 2 pulses depending on every revolution.

I've reached out to the OEM for a datasheet.
 

BobaMosfet

Joined Jul 1, 2009
1,768
mister @Sensacell thank you for your response !
I did exactly as you told me. Here is what I got.
I connected the brown and black to 12V.
Ive connected the gray wire to a separate 5V through a 10k. I put the ground on both the black wire and to the b&g (black and gray) wire. Nothing happened.
Ive inversed, and put the b&g wire to 5V through a 10k . I put the ground on both the black wire and to the gray wire. Nothing happened.
Of course Ive used the 5V ground all the time even when I connected 2 grounds toghether on the same black wire (the ground from 12V and 5V).
Nothing happened.
Ive monitored the tachometer wire first the gray wire, then the b&g wire. Both are giving me about the same voltages when I rotate the rotor. the gray is fluctuating in order of 100-300mV and the b&g wire is fluctuating in order of 10-70mV.
I can not spindle too fast because the case is in the way, but i can spindle it a bit.
Anything else I should try?
You need to understand some things about 4-wire fans- this is technically called a 'blower'. It was made by Delta.

It uses 12VDC at up to 0.5A (power + ground). Speed is controlled by PWM (it is a current' driven fan) lead. It runs at up to 4K-RPM, and they use the tachometer lead to determine how fast it's turning. Tachometer lead generates pulses (1 or 2 per revolution). They do this so they can modulate the air-pressure the fan is delivering.

Don't go just connecting wires, if you fry it, well ... there goes a $12 (USD) fan. Fans are our friend, treat them well ;)
 

Thread Starter

q12x

Joined Sep 25, 2015
609
Hello @Magenta ; You are mister Marconi from the other forum, right? Thank you for sticking to me
I have some other project in parallel with the "led wings", that is eating all my time, this heat gun I am trying to make.
This motor thing here is an option I have in hand, but I can not make it work in any way.
So far mister @BobaMosfet figure it out for me, that I have a Current driven motor. But still, I dont know how to drive it. Or at least to really test it.
This is part B of the previeous movie that I made in the same night. Some stuff I left unsaid. I also tested analog the motor, with a potentiometer on the breadboard. But still, nothing worked. I also have no idea if the motor is still good or is fried !!!!!!! How to determine it is fried?
I am contemplating the idea of taking Out all the motor electronic parts from inside him and drive it's coils "raw" through some transistors , like the BD139 I already used for testing.
 
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Reloadron

Joined Jan 15, 2015
5,934
You have a 4 wire fan. What are the four wire colors? Part of the problem is while most 4 wire fans are standardized the wire color scheme is not. I have seen Ground (black), +12 Volts (Yellow), Tachometer Out (Green) and PWM Input (Blue). However, while the wire colors are not standardized the pinout is. They go 1 Ground, 2 +12 Volts, 3 Tachometer Out and 4 PWM. A simple Google of "4 wire fan connector pinout" should show you some connectors. You may also want to give this a read since you mentioned using an Arduino. Also a Google of 4 wire fan connectors should show you the connector pinout.

Ron
 

Magenta

Joined May 24, 2021
21
_q12x_ Thank you for replying. I will look at the videos you have produced. If you have the time you might like to catch up on my progress on Version 3 of the hand proximity switch which your 'Wings' project inspired me to have a go at. I hope you are well and happy; you are clearly not letting the grass grow under your soldering iron! Regards Magenta.

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/dont-let-the-grass-grow-under-your-feet.html
 

Magenta

Joined May 24, 2021
21
I know I took these motors from an Apple product but i dont remember if it was an iMac or some other name they have. I remember it was a monitor and a PC all in one package.
Actually they are not simple motors but they are turbine motors.
- Help me identify this motors wires and how to drive them:
View attachment 238806View attachment 238810


_q12x_ Have a look at this datasheet which I reckon is for the turbine(fan) you show an image of above. Read pages 5 to 8 carefully. I have only looked quickly myself but this turbine appears to have the motor driver already inside the turbine. What the motor requires to run is 0 and 12V dc, and it is possible to control its speed using PWM input signal connected to the PWM lead, details of which are provided on page 7. If the PWM lead is left disconnected then the motor runs at full speed. The tacho lead provides a voltage proportional to turbine speed for input to a controller which can adjust the PWM mark/space ratio. You do not then need to construct a driver but rather a circuit to generate a PWM signal if you wish to control the speed of this motor.

https://www.datasheetarchive.com/pd...69bb529c839ab7bdbf1&type=P&term=BFB0712VHD-SM

I will read more carefully 'later' - I am quite busy today - but hopefully this will help you and others in the AAC.

:)
 
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