"What's the point of arguing with someone who's already made up his mind?"

This question doesn't make any sense, both parties have already made up their minds, that's why it's an argument.

 

"What's the point of arguing with someone who's already made up his mind?"

This question doesn't make any sense, both parties have already made up their minds, that's why it's an argument.

A real argument is ideally done with an open mind from both parties, trying to understand each other, and adjusting their points of view if presented with incontrovertible evidence. At least that's the way a scientific debate should be done.

Otherwise it's not a debate, nor even an argument ... it's just a fight, plain and simple.

 

Well I see you missed my point, but I'm not going to argue with you.

 

Well I see you missed my point, but I'm not going to argue with you.

I'm not looking for an argument, but rather for an exchange of ideas. And yes, maybe I did miss your point ... maybe in my mind it's been lost in translation. Remember that English is not my birth language ... so I'm trying to listen carefully, and pay close attention.

 

Gupta raises a valid question at the end of that article: "What's the point of arguing with someone who's already made up his mind?" ... the answer is that the discussion was never meant to be kept as a private affair between two participants...

Both are having 'performances' but this is the question that I think the pro-vaxx side has been less than scientifically honest on in the USA.

So the question Joe raises, as do many others: Why should those who have previously had Covid still get the vaccine?
It's a fair question, and one that I raised myself with Dr. Anthony Fauci back in early September. At the time, he told me there was no firm answer on this, and they were still looking into what the recommendations should be going forward and how durable natural immunity is in the long run."

Please don't say it's not effective in preventing reinfection or short-lived, just say the truth. Getting natural immunity is not worth the risk if you can safely get vaccinated but if you have verified natural immunity that should be the equivalent of vaccination.

 

... if you have verified natural immunity that should be the equivalent of vaccination.

it should... but I wonder if it really is ... more studies and time will tell the difference, if there's one.

 

So? That only shows the USA doesn't have a lock on ignorance, it's worldwide, ignorance and a political right wing.

So all of those people are simply "right-wingers" and/or ignorant schmucks? Well I imagine some are but let's be completely fair about it now. Most are likely just "pro-freedom".

Either way their voices should be respected IN A DEMOCRACY. Regardless of whether or not you agree you MUST understand that peaceful protests are an important statement of public consensus. And certainly we can choose to ignore these people. But we do so at our own detriment.

Society always works best when people are "reasonably satisfied" with their governance. Extreme discord leads to instabilities that can take years to iron out. The moderate approach is the answer here. We don't need these mandates...

 

The vaccines were properly tested and approved. The mandates say "proof of vaccination" and do not say "proof of antibodies from getting sick with the virus and surviving".

 

if you have verified natural immunity

Is there such a thing? Yes, there would be antibodies but is that a quantifiable guaranteed immunity? Either from infection or being vaxed?

 

Is there such a thing? Yes, there would be antibodies but is that a quantifiable guaranteed immunity? Either from infection or being vaxed?

Governments currently certify that vaccination gives 'verified immunity' (you get to keep your job after the shot without additional antibody testing) in most cases based on a antibody response in initial vaccine testing so if infection creates natural immunity with at least the same antibody response at similar levels in the body then that should to be equivalent using the information we know today about natural infection.

Studies of the prior infected and the vaccinated with those antibodies has shown protection from reinfections from natural immunity. The real problem is not gaining immunity. The real problem is the risk to get that immunity. Vaccination is so much safer in the vast majority of cases.
https://www.science.org/content/art...er-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital

The study, conducted in one of the most highly COVID-19–vaccinated countries in the world, examined medical records of tens of thousands of Israelis, charting their infections, symptoms, and hospitalizations between 1 June and 14 August, when the Delta variant predominated in Israel. It’s the largest real-world observational study so far to compare natural and vaccine-induced immunity to SARS-CoV-2, according to its leaders.

The research impresses Nussenzweig and other scientists who have reviewed a preprint of the results, posted yesterday on medRxiv. “It’s a textbook example of how natural immunity is really better than vaccination,” says Charlotte Thålin, a physician and immunology researcher at Danderyd Hospital and the Karolinska Institute who studies the immune responses to SARS-CoV-2. “To my knowledge, it’s the first time [this] has really been shown in the context of COVID-19.”

Still, Thålin and other researchers stress that deliberate infection among unvaccinated people would put them at significant risk of severe disease and death, or the lingering, significant symptoms of what has been dubbed Long Covid. The study shows the benefits of natural immunity, but “doesn’t take into account what this virus does to the body to get to that point,” says Marion Pepper, an immunologist at the University of Washington, Seattle. COVID-19 has already killed more than 4 million people worldwide and there are concerns that Delta and other SARS-CoV-2 variants are deadlier than the original virus.

“We continue to underestimate the importance of natural infection immunity … especially when [infection] is recent,” says Eric Topol, a physician-scientist at Scripps Research. “And when you bolster that with one dose of vaccine, you take it to levels you can’t possibly match with any vaccine in the world right now.”

Nussenzweig says the results in previously infected, vaccinated people confirm laboratory findings from a series of papers in Nature and Immunity by his group, his Rockefeller University colleague Paul Bieniasz and others—and from a preprint posted this month by Bieniasz and his team. They show, Nussenzweig says, that the immune systems of people who develop natural immunity to SARS-CoV-2 and then get vaccinated produce exceptionally broad and potent antibodies against the coronavirus. The preprint, for example, reported that people who were previously infected and then vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine had antibodies in their blood that neutralized the infectivity of another virus, harmless to humans, that was engineered to express a version of the coronavirus spike protein that contains 20 concerning mutations. Sera from vaccinated and naturally infected people could not do so.

I would get the shot even if I had prior infection as a booster.

 

The vaccines were properly tested and approved. The mandates say "proof of vaccination" and do not say "proof of antibodies from getting sick with the virus and surviving".

Proof of vaccination implies "proof of antibodies from getting sick with the virus and surviving" because that's the immune response these types of vaccines are test to.

 

hi,
Do you anti-vaxers want to have a re-run of the Spanish Flu back in the 20's.? where some 20 million died acquiring natural immunity.??
Sure natural acquired immunity is a nice idea, but it would take much longer to acquire to become Endemic, at a possible cost of millions of deaths to our fellow humans.

Fortunately we have advanced our science to a point where we have been able to develop vaccines that now give us some level of immunity, that have in the past killed millions.

By using Vaccines we can greatly shorten the time for Covid to become Endemic and thus save many innocent lives.

If you want to help shorten this pandemic Covid, to Endemic levels, get vaccinated.

Eric

 

Either way their voices should be respected IN A DEMOCRACY.

There is no such thing. In a democracy, the majority rules.

 

its been a very bad moment for the covid

 

There is no such thing. In a democracy, the majority rules.

Well most people ARE against the mandates. Texas has even outlawed them. So the majority in fact HAS spoken. "NO" to the mandates! "YES" for civil liberties! But also "YES" for the freedom to encourage others to GET the vaccine. The vaccines may very well be the right choice for you or someone else.

 

it should... but I wonder if it really is ... more studies and time will tell the difference, if there's one.

There are the two that I posted here over the past few days...

Cavanaugh AM, Spicer KB, Thoroughman D, Glick C, Winter K. Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 2021;70:1081-1083. DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.15585/mmwr.mm7032e1

Antibodies elicited by mRNA-1273 vaccination bind more broadly to the receptor binding domain than do those from SARS-CoV-2 infection. Greaney AJ, Loes AN, Gentles LE, Crawford KHD, Starr TN, Malone KD, Chu HY, Bloom JD. Sci Transl Med. 2021 Jun 8.

 

There are the two that I posted here over the past few days...

Multiple studies show that immune response is stronger and longer lasting after natural infection. It results in production of more than just antibodies.

Claim that only vaccination produces a strong "verifiable" response (worthy of a "passport") is rediculous. When vaccinating older or immunocompromised individuals is anyone measuring their immune response? It is well known that immune reaponse is highly individual, it does not matter if it is triggered by a vaccine or by a virus.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04060-7

p.s I read the article. Yes it discusses the vaccine and that it is also doing its job. The point here is - why is natural immunity being ignored/dismissed?

 

Natural immunity is being ignored/dismissed because there is no proof. A test takes time and costs a lot.
A vaccine has a paper trail and soon we will have a passport that shows proof.

The antivaxxers who are protesting are blocked from doing almost everything by the mandates.
Vaccinations, masks and social distancing are a proven way to block the virus. "Democratic Rights" do not.

 

Multiple studies show that immune response is stronger and longer lasting after natural infection. It results in production of more than just antibodies.

Claim that only vaccination produces a strong "verifiable" response (worthy of a "passport") is rediculous. When vaccinating older or immunocompromised individuals is anyone measuring their immune response? It is well known that immune reaponse is highly individual, it does not matter if it is triggered by a vaccine or by a virus.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04060-7

p.s I read the article. Yes it discusses the vaccine and that it is also doing its job. The point here is - why is natural immunity being ignored/dismissed?

Firstly, thank you for the study, I'll go through it when I get some time.

It will be interesting to compare it to the other study which came to the opposite conclusion.

 

How about this gem - https://nationalpost.com/news/dr-deena-hinshaw-says-alberta-teen-didnt-actually-die-from-covid

I am sure this is just the thing to help convince Alberta hold outs to get vaccinated.