I thought about posting the article Al is talking about. Yes there was some supposition in the article. Everything coming out of china is based on supposition due to the fact that china is covering much up to save face. It was by a journalist with china experience and very well written. The journalist interviewed a lot of people and had to "read between the lines" a bit to try to get to the facts and brought out more than just supposition. One of the problems was that hot leads came to abrupt halts due to persons being missing. Also the point that pangolins were not sold in the Wuhan FISH MARKET along with pointing out that at this time of year in china, bats are in hibernation. The culture in Wuhan does not eat bats and they are not sold in any markets there or pangolins. Lot's of little bits of facts that added up nicely. Missing were published researchers who apparently said too much and disappeared in china. Who da thunk it. There is a lab in Wuhan studying CV. There is no evidence of a food source in Wuhan that would be a carrier for the virus. Cover-up story??? Too many things are lining up at odds with what china is telling the world as to the source of this virus. Including that it was bioterrorism brought to china by US soldiers who attended a sports event in china. It really is starting to look like a cover-up. FWIW

 

I thought about posting the article Al is talking about. Yes there was some supposition in the article. Everything coming out of china is based on supposition due to the fact that china is covering much up to save face. It was by a journalist with china experience and very well written. The journalist interviewed a lot of people and had to "read between the lines" a bit to try to get to the facts and brought out more than just supposition. One of the problems was that hot leads came to abrupt halts due to persons being missing. Also the point that pangolins were not sold in the Wuhan FISH MARKET along with pointing out that at this time of year in china, bats are in hibernation. The culture in Wuhan does not eat bats and they are not sold in any markets there or pangolins. Lot's of little bits of facts that added up nicely. Missing were published researchers who apparently said too much and disappeared in china. Who da thunk it. There is a lab in Wuhan studying CV. There is no evidence of a food source in Wuhan that would be a carrier for the virus. Cover-up story??? Too many things are lining up at odds with what china is telling the world as to the source of this virus. Including that it was bioterrorism brought to china by US soldiers who attended a sports event in china. It really is starting to look like a cover-up. FWIW

I'll try to avoid talking about X.

The problem with that article is the lack of actual scientific evidence it happened that way when there is a hell of a lot of scientific evidence that says it's wrong. If there was a nickel's worth of actual scientific evidence my best guess would be the current US government would be pounding a shoe on the podium everyday trying to deflect blame for thousands of deaths. There seems to be no inhibitions on the current US government in pointing fingers at others at the slightest indication it might also be part of a problem.

There is also Occam razor

Similarly, in science, Occam's razor is used as an abductive heuristic in the development of theoretical models rather than as a rigorous arbiter between candidate models.[4][5] In the scientific method, Occam's razor is not considered an irrefutable principle of logic or a scientific result; the preference for simplicity in the scientific method is based on the falsifiability criterion. For each accepted explanation of a phenomenon, there may be an extremely large, perhaps even incomprehensible, number of possible and more complex alternatives. Since one can always burden failing explanations with ad hoc hypotheses to prevent them from being falsified, simpler theories are preferable to more complex ones because they are more testable.[6][7][8]

 

I'll try to avoid talking about X.

The problem with that article is the lack of actual scientific evidence it happened that way when there is a hell of a lot of scientific evidence that says it's wrong. If there was a nickel's worth of actual scientific evidence my best guess would be the current US government would be pounding a shoe on the podium everyday trying to deflect blame for thousands of deaths. There seems to be no inhibitions on the current US government in pointing fingers at others at the slightest indication it might also be part of a problem.

There is also Occam razor

Whenever a discussion like this one ensues, my question is always the same... who do you trust? ... the peer-reviewed scientific community, or the news media?

 

My point is, there's not a single human being on this planet who has access to all the necessary evidence needed to pass objective evidence.

We have to rely on trustworthy institutions. Even if they fail us sometimes.

 

 

Will "toilet plume" makes it's way into our vocabulary?

 

Well finally happened closer to home, my wife came home yesterday saying one of their co-workers a night stocking person tested positive for C19. My wife works weekends sometime to hand out food, they’ve since stopped that and Sams has taken them on to clean the store, shelves etc. Since she’s been cleaning and wearing gloves I don’t think she’s in real danger.

kv

 

there is a hell of a lot of scientific evidence that says it's wrong.

Such as? It came from china? Localized in Wuhan? No source found in the "wet market" that turns out to be a fish market? Located in that vicinity is a CV research lab studying bats? Prominent chinese research scientists who raised concerns are missing? It may not be the smoking gun but it sure raises some serious questions about the so-called facts being given out by the chinese government who are known for prevarication and outright lies. FWIW

 

Such as? It came from china? Localized in Wuhan? No source found in the "wet market" that turns out to be a fish market? Located in that vicinity is a CV research lab studying bats? Prominent chinese research scientists who raised concerns are missing? It may not be the smoking gun but it sure raises some serious questions about the so-called facts being given out by the chinese government who are known for prevarication and outright lies. FWIW

The facts are peer-reviewed studies independent from Chinese information that actually analyze the RNA structures of this virus and natural virus samples of earlier versions. A basic understanding of the links posted on this thread show pretty conclusive evidence of its natural origins.

Two things can be wrong here. The chinese government information about number of cases, deaths and Internet conspiracy stories can both be prevarication and outright lies.

In conspiracy theory circles, these gaps have been filled with extremely flawed or bogus science, the incorrect interpretation of existing science, or both. Not only do these arguments — discussed in detail below — lack merit on their own, factual scientific studies concerning the origin of SARS-CoV-2 actually provide the strongest refutation to date of the claim the virus was “created in a lab.”

 

pretty conclusive evidence of its natural origins

That is not disputed in the article. That is exactly what is being studied in the CV research lab in Wuhan. What is being disputed is the claim that it came from nonexistant animals being sold in a fish market.

 

There is also evidence that supposed patient zero (linked to wet market) is not patient zero and first exposure to the virus happened earlier and in a different location

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.25.20027953v1.full.pdf

 

About the "lab vs natural origin", you have to understand it was created in the lab to look like it had a natural origin. (Flag: Sarcasm).

 

Oh you know what else is interesting is that Chinese doctor 'whistle blower' suddenly died.
There are other stories around the web too though do a quick search see what you can find.

https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...mproper-response-to-coronavirus-whistleblower

 

Considering the rate of mutation in a virus, I would think "created in a lab" or "escaped from a lab" would not be that far fetched.

Now...engineered in a lab, that's a different story.

 

Will "toilet plume" makes it's way into our vocabulary?

Outhouses were a good idea. Or, just don't flush.

 

That is not disputed in the article. That is exactly what is being studied in the CV research lab in Wuhan. What is being disputed is the claim that it came from nonexistant animals being sold in a fish market.

I would agree with that as a specific exact claim that didn't come from a “scientific study” but there are huge amounts of natural sources in the wild that have been historically documented as causing these types of disease breakouts.

Did a ‘Scientific Study’ Conclude the Coronavirus Escaped from a Lab?
A February 2020 document erroneously described by several media outlets as a “scientific study” provides the supposedly science-based evidence of a virus escaping from a lab.

This paper, such as it is, merely highlights the close distance between the seafood market and the labs and falsely claimed to have identified instances in which viral agents had escaped from Wuhan biological laboratories in the past. With those two elements, half of them factual, the authors come to the sweeping conclusion that “somebody was entangled with the evolution of 2019-nCoV coronavirus,” and “the killer coronavirus probably originated from a laboratory in Wuhan.” While SARS viruses have escaped from a Beijing lab on at least four occasions, no such event has been documented in Wuhan.

The purported instances of pathogens leaking from Wuhan laboratories, according to this “study,” came from a Chinese news report (that we believe, based on the similarity of the research described and people involved, to be reproduced here) that profiled a Wuhan Center for Disease Control and Prevention researcher named Tian Junhua. In 2012 and 2013, he captured and sampled nearly 10,000 bats in an effort to decode the evolutionary history of the hantavirus. In two instances, this researcher properly self-quarantined either after being bitten or urinated on by a potentially infected bat, he told reporters. These events, according to the 2013 study his research produced, occurred in the field and have nothing to do with either lab’s ability to contain infective agents. The paper also asserts without evidence that infectious waste was merely tossed out of the lab closer to the market as regular trash.

China is also playing the Conspiracy Game.
https://fsi.stanford.edu/news/china-covid19-origin-narrative

Zhao’s implication that the United States and its military could be behind Wuhan’s outbreak, even inadvertently, sparked outrage. The U.S. government summoned Cui Tiankai, the Chinese ambassador to the United States, over the remarks. Cui later publicly disavowed the U.S. military conspiracy theory, and Chinese officials have not further amplified it.

Groundless speculation about the origins of the pandemic did not begin with Zhao, but the case of his eye-catching tweets reveals how China’s changing propaganda tactics have interacted with mangled news reporting, social media conspiracy theorizing, and underlying U.S.-China tensions—all resulting in high-profile misinformation about a public health crisis.

 

Outhouses were a good idea. Or, just don't flush.

Now we know how dogs catch it.

 

Will "toilet plume" makes it's way into our vocabulary?

I think it might possibly be more socially acceptable in mixed-company than aerosol fecal matter.

 

I doubt escaped from will go down in the archives of history much like the Kennedy assassination. The truth will never be known so just pick a theory you like, close your eyes and slowly repeat over and over "I Believe". Doesn't matter and the US suing China is pure fantasy. Good luck collecting.

One thing for sure is the economy is taking a hell of a hit. I no longer even want to look at investments. I feel for the young like my kids and grand kids who will be picking up the tab for all of this. Glad I am no longer in the work force. My son is deemed essential but his wife, a dental hygienist obviously not so and obviously can't work from home. My daughter is working from home and her husband is deemed essential so he is still seeing a pay check. Overall while things could be better they could be much worse. Rather that speculation I figure it makes more sense to focus on what is actually going on in front of us. That is what is having much more impact on our daily lives.

Ron

 

I doubt escaped from will go down in the archives of history much like the Kennedy assassination. The truth will never be known so just pick a theory you like, close your eyes and slowly repeat over and over "I Believe". Doesn't matter and the US suing China is pure fantasy. Good luck collecting.

One thing for sure is the economy is taking a hell of a hit. I no longer even want to look at investments. I feel for the young like my kids and grand kids who will be picking up the tab for all of this. Glad I am no longer in the work force. My son is deemed essential but his wife, a dental hygienist obviously not so and obviously can't work from home. My daughter is working from home and her husband is deemed essential so he is still seeing a pay check. Overall while things could be better they could be much worse. Rather that speculation I figure it makes more sense to focus on what is actually going on in front of us. That is what is having much more impact on our daily lives.

Ron

Wise words. So far only one of my kids is out of a job (but still has medical coverage from the company) but she's an artist so that's a natural condition.

In front of me today is an oil change for the car.