No one drinks Foster's here.

The car yard analogy you presented is a false equivalency fallacy.

It would be more like a Holden SS (Australian car) being sold in the USA as a Chevrolet SS - The exact same car with a different badge.

NSA has been very diligent at providing sources for his information, but it has been one sided... A statement provided with no proof can be dismissed with no proof.

I also see a lot of arguments from ignorance - You can't say "We can't prove that x is not y, so x must be y" - This is a very typical argument from someone who believes a lot of conspiracy theories. Do you believe in lots of conspiracy theories?

Then you should stop clicking "like" on my posts.

 

Interesting when it comes to the coronavirus and Fine Wine & Good Spirits stores located in Pennsylvania. The governor of PA gave his population a 24 hour notice of his intent to shut down alcohol sales, "The retailers raked in a total of $26.5 million in retail sales on March 16, the day Wolf announced the shutdown". The humorous part was people simply drove across state lines to buy alcohol and it got so funny that counties here in Ohio bordering PA began requiring Ohio ID to buy alcohol. This circus on hard liquor sales lasted 8 weeks. We can easily see how shutting down state run liquor stores was a wonderful well thought out attempt to control and stop the spread of coronavirus. Meanwhile the governor of Hawaii is discouraging tourism telling people not to come to Hawaii. Hawaii thrives on tourism. They do export "Sugar cane and pineapples are Hawaii's most valuable crops. Hawaii also produces large quantities of flowers, much for export. Coffee, macadamia nuts, avocados, bananas, guavas, papayas, tomatoes and other fruits are grown". However, tourism is the big money maker.

Anyway the subject of coronavirus and booze makes for some interesting reading.

Ron

 

Then you should stop clicking "like" on my posts.

View attachment 247620

Are you saying that I should dismiss everything that you say because you said that Aussies drink Foster's?

 

Are you saying that I should dismiss everything that you say because you said that Aussies drink Foster's?

Your rant was too long, I stopped reading when you mentioned a "car park" and I didn't remember mentioning a car park.

 

Are you saying that I should dismiss everything that you say because you said that Aussies drink Foster's?

No. Sadly in America much of what they learned about Aussies was from the Simpsons. I remember EMU beer being pretty good.

 

Your rant was too long, I stopped reading when you mentioned a "car park" and I didn't remember mentioning a car park.

I never mentioned a car park.

Please re-read the post, I have put an edit in to clarify what I think that you are getting mixed up about.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/09/us/politics/vaccine-mandates-history.html

Vaccination Mandates Are an American Tradition. So Is the Backlash.

 

Nobody knows the long-term effects of Covid-19 infections.

Neither did many other vaccines. By your logic, no medicine should ever be approved. We should all just die.

 

Neither did many other vaccines. By your logic, no medicine should ever be approved. We should all just die.

I think that the comment was saying that as a counter argument to the "unknown side effects" of the vaccine narrative.

The key was the word "infection"

But you are right with your statement about medications.

 

Neither did many other vaccines. By your logic, no medicine should ever be approved. We should all just die.

Re-read my post. I didn't say anything about vaccines.

 

Well, I see nothing has changed in the months since my last check-in, just like nothing has changed since the beginning of covid. Two opposite storms of absolute certainty perpetually crashing into each other and leaving a wake of butthurt. That's why I don't follow this thread and why I quit social media.

I think, that if you think you've made an informed decision in either direction, then that's the strongest evidence for the fact that you haven't.

I think, that if you think "the data" (as if there were only one, or one source of it) supports your position, whichever position it may be, then you've cherry picked "the data."

I think, the truth of the matter is that we are being manipulated from two sides with equal fervor for reasons I don't understand, and 99% of us aren't equipped to have any clue which side is lying more ( they both are). The best we can do is individually make the best decision we can based on our own intel and our own situation, and be more gracious to one another. This situation is bad enough without us engaging each other in unwinnable battles wielding weapons deliberately created for the purpose.

 

I think, the truth of the matter is that we are being manipulated from two sides with equal fervor for reasons I don't understand, and 99% of us aren't equipped to have any clue which side is lying more ( they both are). The best we can do is individually make the best decision we can based on our own intel and our own situation, and be more gracious to one another. This situation is bad enough without us engaging each other in unwinnable battles wielding weapons deliberately created for the purpose.

Singing songs and they carrying signs (Ooh ooh ooh)
Mostly say, "Hooray for our side" (Ooh ooh ooh)

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Step out of line, the men come and take you away

Strantor, likely the best post in the thread.

Ron

 

Well, I see nothing has changed in the months since my last check-in, just like nothing has changed since the beginning of covid. Two opposite storms of absolute certainty perpetually crashing into each other and leaving a wake of butthurt. That's why I don't follow this thread and why I quit social media.

I think, that if you think you've made an informed decision in either direction, then that's the strongest evidence for the fact that you haven't.

I think, that if you think "the data" (as if there were only one, or one source of it) supports your position, whichever position it may be, then you've cherry picked "the data."

I think, the truth of the matter is that we are being manipulated from two sides with equal fervor for reasons I don't understand, and 99% of us aren't equipped to have any clue which side is lying more ( they both are). The best we can do is individually make the best decision we can based on our own intel and our own situation, and be more gracious to one another. This situation is bad enough without us engaging each other in unwinnable battles wielding weapons deliberately created for the purpose.

I don't think that's true at all. The data is damn clear you should get vaccinated, PERIOD. Deliberate and directed misinformation is killing good people and is the driving cause of the loss of personal freedoms now that we have effective vaccines. These are not opposite storms. One side (the truth as it has evolved over time) has a mountain of evidence and scientific data that has saved untold human sickness and death. The other side (lies) has, well, nothing but lies and misinformation using fear for control of IMO mainly confused citizens.

There is zero equivalence.


“It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out.”

― Carl Sagan

 

Strantor, likely the best post in the thread.

Ron

I respect the person but no, not even close. The stakes are too high for individual choice and personal objection.

 

hi nsaspook,
I agree,
This WW2 poster seems apt.
E

 

hi nsaspook,
I agree,
This WW2 poster seems apt.
E
View attachment 247668

I don't want to restrict opposition to vaccination and the exchange of anti-vaxx ideas (that are mostly trivial to counter) but the idea that there are two equivalent sides to this argument is IMO ludicrous.

https://abc7ny.com/husband-and-wife-covid-vaccine-hesitancy-parents-with-texas-faces-of/10922519/

Once she was in ICU, Lydia changed her mind about the vaccine and asked to get it, but doctors told her it was too late.

"Before she got intubated, one of the last things she told her sister was 'Please make sure my children get vaccinated,'" Jones said. "It's hard to do that in hindsight. To think that she wouldn't be there, she would be there for her kids right now if she had been vaccinated."

Jones says she shares this in hopes of other families not ending up like hers.

"I just am tired of the anti-vax rhetoric that is causing so many, like my cousin and her family, to not get vaccinated," she said.

https://people.com/human-interest/t...vid-vaccine-die-leaving-behind-four-children/

Texas Couple Who 'Didn't Trust' COVID Vaccine Die, Leave Behind 4 Children: 'This Virus Is Real'

Lydia was immediately placed on a ventilator while Lawrence was placed on oxygen, Jones explained. But Lawrence's condition quickly worsened, and soon he joined his wife on a ventilator in the ICU.
As Lydia remained in the ICU, Lawrence succumbed to complications of the disease on Aug. 2, and 14 days later on Aug. 16, Lydia followed, the campaign organizer wrote.

 

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210910-the-way-we-were-denmark-lifts-all-covid-curbs

The way we were: Denmark lifts all Covid curbs

Denmark's vaccination campaign has gone swiftly, with 73 percent of the 5.8 million population fully vaccinated, and 96 percent of those 65 and older.

- 'Aiming for free movement' -

"We're aiming for free movement... What will happen now is that the virus will circulate and it will find the ones who are not vaccinated," epidemiologist Lone Simonsen told AFP.

"Now the virus is no longer a societal threat, thanks to the vaccine," said Simonsen, who works at the University of Roskilde.

According to the World Health Organization, the Scandinavian country has benefitted from public compliance with government guidelines and the Covid strategy adopted.

"Like many countries, Denmark has, throughout the pandemic, implemented public health and social measures to reduce transmission. But at the same time it has greatly relied on individuals and communities to comply voluntarily," said Catherine Smallwood, WHO Europe's emergency officer.
...
A third dose has also been available to risk groups since Thursday.

Simonsen said the vaccines have so far provided immunity from variants "but if escape variants (resistant to the vaccine) were to appear, we will have to rethink our strategy."

 

I respect the person but no, not even close. The stakes are too high for individual choice and personal objection.

While I agree I think his point is valid. Like many here I certainly know my share of anti vaccine people. I also have noticed no matter what evidence or factual information is presented to them they are not going to budge in their stance. My neighbor is one such individual and his wife takes everything he says as gospel. The only way he will come around is if he is dead and even dead he will swear the vaccine is a tracking device. I recently used two phrases I like in another forum on a totally different subject. The first is a Mark Twain quote:

"Don't argue with fools because people watching from a distance can't tell who is who". (something like that)

One I really like is:

"Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are the bird is going to crap on the board and strut around like it won anyway". (not sure who came up with that one)

So while I strongly agree with you I don't see things changing much. Each side at this point is pretty well dug in. Hell here in Ohio we are just about a 50% vaccination rate of those eligible and I would have expected much better. Anyway I saw Straintor's post as along the lines of at this point people who refuse are not about to comply and as I pointed out in a few post unless strapped down will not get a vaccination or whatever anyone chooses to call it.

Ron

 

While I agree I think his point is valid. Like many here I certainly know my share of anti vaccine people. I also have noticed no matter what evidence or factual information is presented to them they are not going to budge in their stance. My neighbor is one such individual and his wife takes everything he says as gospel. The only way he will come around is if he is dead and even dead he will swear the vaccine is a tracking device. I recently used two phrases I like in another forum on a totally different subject. The first is a Mark Twain quote:

"Don't argue with fools because people watching from a distance can't tell who is who". (something like that)

One I really like is:

"Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are the bird is going to crap on the board and strut around like it won anyway". (not sure who came up with that one)

So while I strongly agree with you I don't see things changing much. Each side at this point is pretty well dug in. Hell here in Ohio we are just about a 50% vaccination rate of those eligible and I would have expected much better. Anyway I saw Straintor's post as along the lines of at this point people who refuse are not about to comply and as I pointed out in a few post unless strapped down will not get a vaccination or whatever anyone chooses to call it.

Ron

It's quickly approaching the federal equivalent of strapped down for a large number of people. 'Sorry, OSHA said we have to do this and we have to follow what OSHA tells us.' I expect big business to be very happy about a OSHA rule that kicks the ball from their management on vaccine mandates. I still try to make a distinction from the misinformed vs the actively anti-vaxx. The true anti-vaxx are mainly a lost cause but I don't think they are the majority of the unvaccinated. People are prone to stick with first impressions and sometimes it takes a kick in the 'Boot' to make them reconsider the fear they have. I just don't want to see them reconsider at the point of death. A large number of the unvaccinated are black and are dying not because they believe in some right-wing talk host or political party. They are dying because of fear and sometimes targeted messages that vaccination is 'bad'.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk...unity-used-marketing-new-anti-vaxxer-n1260724

Among recycled false narratives from other anti-vaccine films, including one that asserts that childhood vaccinations cause autism, it offers up conspiracy theories about Bill Gates and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Interspersed with them, however, are reputable doctors and historians who talk about America's real history of medical racism as represented by the Tuskegee Study and early gynecological experimentation on enslaved Black women without anesthesia.

"The danger in disinformation isn't always just lies, but it's a warping of truth to get to a specific end," Collins-Dexter said. "And so when you say 'Tuskegee experiment' to Black people, that's automatically going to mean something that feels truthful, and that opens the door to a sort of manipulation that makes a viewer say: 'Oh, they've done this before. Obviously, they would do that again.' But they don't contextualize what it means."

 

Any reasonable person who was looking at this situation from a completely
detached point of view could easily point out the fact that fully "half" of the
participants is this disagreement willfully REFUSE to take into consideration,
or even simply look in the direction of ...........

The very idea that they may be missing vital pieces of information,
and/or,
Relying upon sources which have their own "beliefs" or "fears"
which they repeatedly state as "fact",
and/or,
Relying upon sources which have an extremely obvious
"vested-interest" in the outcome,
and/or,
Relying upon sources which have a well established history of deceit,
and questionable reputation.

Like Stevie Wonder said ...........
When You believe in things that You don't understand,
then You suffer,
Superstition ain't the way.

Not a single person here can argue with any of the above statements.
( name calling and/or derogatory comments and/or attacking the messenger
do not qualify as an an argument,
and simply demonstrate the value of that persons opinion, in a most laughable way )

So, since this is a VERY SERIOUS LIFE OR DEATH PROBLEM,
why are there so few people who will actually do some SERIOUS RESEARCH and
get to the bottom-line of the situation ?

I know for a fact that there are more intelligent people than myself in these Forums,
but it seems that for most people FEAR eradicates rationality.
.
.
.