So here's a challenge for you (and I would legitimately like to see the result).

Imagine two generators (we can make it as simple as a single loop of wire turning in a static magnetic field). In one generator, the wire is made of copper, but in the other generator it is made of glass. Since it is all about the fields and not about the movement of charge carriers and the net charge carrier movement is zero here (since this is going to be an AC generator), explain, in terms of the fields only, why we get power from one and not the other. Remember, no mention of any motion of charge carriers is allowed, everything must be described in terms of the fields.

I've never said there are not sources and currents in the generator equation (or in electromagnetics in general) so your question is a classic strawman (and sort of disappointing as a poor strawman). I merely state the obvious, they are not the carriers of electrical energy.

A classic electron kinetic energy calculation for a circuit current.

A 2 mm wire carrying a 1 Amp current has electron drift velocities around 2.5E-5 meters/second, so at 1/2 mv^2, each electron has a staggering 2.38E-40 joules of kinetic energy. Suppose the voltage is 1 V, so 1 Amp of current is carrying 1 joule per second of energy. At the same time, the coulomb of electrons is (6.2E18) is carrying 1.4E-21 joules of kinetic energy.

That electron KE represents a possible loss of electrical energy in the circuit.

They (charge carriers) are a vital part of the energy conversion process because they have the property of electric fields.

Using QFT it's possible to use the “electron field” and the electromagnetic field for your generator question but that's pretty esoteric.
In quantum field theory, what we perceive as particles are excitations of the quantum field itself.

With those two QM fields it's possible to make a hand-waving explanation of a generator but of course, your strawman two generation setup won't work (as I'm sure you already know) even with QFT.

 

I never said anything about electrons I said "current flow" and "Magnetic field" , and it is indeed some sort of magic that moving a wire thru a magnetic field causes current to flow. And then, that the current flow produces it's own magnetic flux field and the two fields fight and THAT IS WHY it takes more effort to spin a generator. So now you have the whole story with no math or calculus at all.

 

I never said anything about electrons I said "current flow" and "Magnetic field" , and it is indeed some sort of magic that moving a wire thru a magnetic field causes current to flow. And then, that the current flow produces it's own magnetic flux field and the two fields fight and THAT IS WHY it takes more effort to spin a generator. So now you have the whole story with no math or calculus at all.

Current is not electrical energy.

There is no magic or fighting evolved.

Classical Bohr electron magnetic dipole moment theory

 

Current is how electricity gets to where it does some work. And pushing a magnetic force enough to move it against another magnetic force is work, which requires energy to perform.
My explanations should have been enough to explain to the doubter why it requires work to spin a generator to get it to deliver power in the form of an electric current. And it was all done without any numbers. It may have even had some incorrect units on occasion. THAT is how it is explained without videos!
The reality is that I really do not like video presentations of hardly anything that is to be learned, for the reason that every one of them goes way too fast for adequate learning, if adequate learning is the intention. That is where TEXT is best! I understand that many individuals are not able to focus their attention long enough to read a whole sentence.
THAT IS NOT MY PROBLEM, it is their problem!

Knowledge and insight are a lot more than a collection of buzzwords picked up on the fly. And understanding as well.

 

Current is not electrical energy.

No, but current times voltage is.

 

Current is how electricity gets to where it does some work. And pushing a magnetic force enough to move it against another magnetic force is work, which requires energy to perform.
My explanations should have been enough to explain to the doubter why it requires work to spin a generator to get it to deliver power in the form of an electric current. And it was all done without any numbers. It may have even had some incorrect units on occasion. THAT is how it is explained without videos!
The reality is that I really do not like video presentations of hardly anything that is to be learned, for the reason that every one of them goes way too fast for adequate learning, if adequate learning is the intention. That is where TEXT is best! I understand that many individuals are not able to focus their attention long enough to read a whole sentence.
THAT IS NOT MY PROBLEM, it is their problem!

Knowledge and insight are a lot more than a collection of buzzwords picked up on the fly. And understanding as well.

Current is electricity (physics meaning) but electricity is not energy. The term Electricity is not well-defined in physics, it's more of a science category of interactions than a thing or a quantity.
Electricity is a word best not used at all if you can avoid it.

Maybe if you actually watched the videos you might learn something instead of spouting electrical misconceptions. I like you but you're clueless here.

 

No, but current times voltage is.

Watt did you say?

Ron

 

No, but current times voltage is.

Yes, exactly (you've made progress from our previous conversations on the topic), because they are used as circuit theory proxies for EM field energy components. It works very well until you begin to believe that current is energy. Circuit theory (nor any valid theory) has ever said that current is electrical energy.
A simple mathematical expression of the actual energy in current shows it to be minimal in a typical good conductor circuit.
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-physics/chapter/20-1-current/

 

you've made progress from our previous conversations on the topic

I always appreciate a good "atta boy".

 

I know what's in the videos, and it's not of interest to me in my hobby of doing circuit design.

So I was just using Watt's Law (I know you are familiar with that) for power dissipated in a device.
How is that a misconception?

I may be clueless in your opinion, and obviously you are very knowledgeable in many areas, but in my opinion, you are annoyingly pedantic (which I suppose is redundant) in your condescending attitude toward those who you think don't know as much as you.

I've never said that Watt's law is a misconception as I said: Yes, Exactly to your comment.

We all have our little pedantic peeves that annoy us.

 

I always appreciate a good "atta boy".

I mean that in a good way about being on the path to enlightenment that can help with all aspects of circuit design and understanding. Yes, I can be pedantic and condescending but you are clear evidence that it's necessary at times.

 

I've never said that Watt's law is a misconception as I said: Yes, Exactly to your comment.

Sorry (slap head).
My apologies, I was mistakenly replying to the wrong post (yours to MB2) which I though was to me.
I deleted it when I realized that, but apparently it was too late.

 

I can be pedantic and condescending but you are clear evidence that it's necessary at times.

So happy I can be a clear reason for your behavior.
So apparently you don't mind that persona, as you feel it necessary so the misconceptions of the unwashed can be corrected.

 

So happy I can be a clear reason for your behavior.
So apparently you don't mind that persona, as you feel it necessary so the misconceptions of the unwashed can be corrected.

Personal sacrifices must be made for the greater good, I learned that a long time ago, in a land far far away. It's not for us old guys who are set in their ways, it's for the new(er) guys, just beginning. There is something very beautiful and wonderful behind the curtain of misconceptions many are taught in HS level electronics. We can expand on circuit theory to include basic field theory in a manner compatible with higher level physics without high level math.

 

It works very well until you begin to believe that current is energy.

Current isn't energy, it's the result of energy.

Kinetic energy is energy that is stored in some form. In the case of a full bathtub, the energy sits there and does nothing. It's still energy but in a kinetic form. Its energy is in the form ow weight and gravity as well as volume. Once you open the drain water flows down the pipe. THAT is current. How fast the current flows is a result of the size of the opening in the drain. If it's wide open it will drain faster than if it's partially blocked. That's resistance. As the tub drains the potential energy lowers until it is empty. When the stored energy is gone there is no more current. But that doesn't mean energy was created or destroyed, it was simply converted into something else. In the case of the bathtub that "energy" was put there by a spigot. It came from somewhere else, be it a pumping station or an overhead water tank. If you follow it all the way back to its source it came from the sun and the ocean. So where did the energy go? Down the drain. Energy moves from the higher potential to the lower potential and is dispersed. In the tub analogy it goes to the drain and then on to the sewage treatment plant, then out to the ocean. It's a cycle that is repeated constantly. Energy is always there in some form or another.

That energy can do work. Power. Or in the case of electricity, power is measured in watts which is the multiplication of voltage times amperage (E*I=W).

 

Current isn't energy, it's the result of energy.

Kinetic energy is energy that is stored in some form. In the case of a full bathtub, the energy sits there and does nothing. It's still energy but in a kinetic form. Its energy is in the form ow weight and gravity as well as volume. Once you open the drain water flows down the pipe. THAT is current. How fast the current flows is a result of the size of the opening in the drain. If it's wide open it will drain faster than if it's partially blocked. That's resistance. As the tub drains the potential energy lowers until it is empty. When the stored energy is gone there is no more current. But that doesn't mean energy was created or destroyed, it was simply converted into something else. In the case of the bathtub that "energy" was put there by a spigot. It came from somewhere else, be it a pumping station or an overhead water tank. If you follow it all the way back to its source it came from the sun and the ocean. So where did the energy go? Down the drain. Energy moves from the higher potential to the lower potential and is dispersed. In the tub analogy it goes to the drain and then on to the sewage treatment plant, then out to the ocean. It's a cycle that is repeated constantly. Energy is always there in some form or another.

That energy can do work. Power. Or in the case of electricity, power is measured in watts which is the multiplication of voltage times amperage (E*I=W).

I'm going to be harsh in the first part. It's not personal.

Please, don't use the drain pipe analogy to try to explain actual physics. It is the main source of electrical misconceptions. Most of what you're saying is the typical misconception taught in HS level electricity classes.
It's not even wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong

Do like I did and actually calculate the kinetic energy in current.

A classic electron kinetic energy calculation for a circuit current.

A 2 mm wire carrying a 1 Amp current has electron drift velocities around 2.5E-5 meters/second, so at 1/2 mv^2, each electron has a staggering 2.38E-40 joules of kinetic energy. Suppose the voltage is 1 V, so 1 Amp of current is carrying 1 joule per second of energy. At the same time, the coulomb of electrons is (6.2E18) is carrying 1.4E-21 joules of kinetic energy.

You will find the value to be very low. The Electrical Energy of circuit is in the fields surrounding the conductors for the remainder of 1 joule per second of energy, normally defined as 1 Watt.

The part of EM theory that describes energy flow is called Poynting’s theorem. It says that energy in the EM fields moves from one place to another in a direction that is perpendicular to both the E field and the B field. When we have resistors getting hot, bulbs glowing, motor moving, and generators providing electrical energy, it's because of energy movements between the fields and matter.

In detail: https://web.mit.edu/6.013_book/www/chapter11/11.2.html
As you can see it's a complex matter at the HS level so the fiction of current as energy is used as a stepping stone for those that will continue with electrical science educations and the drain pipe analogy will remain for those that don't.

 

I'm going to be harsh in the first part. It's not personal.

Please, don't use the drain pipe analogy to try to explain actual physics. It is the main source of electrical misconceptions. Most of what you're saying is the typical misconception taught in HS level electricity classes.
It's not even wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong

Do like I did and actually calculate the kinetic energy in current.

A classic electron kinetic energy calculation for a circuit current.


You will find the value to be very low. The Electrical Energy of circuit is in the fields surrounding the conductors for the remainder of 1 joule per second of energy, normally defined as 1 Watt.

The part of EM theory that describes energy flow is called Poynting’s theorem. It says that energy in the EM fields moves from one place to another in a direction that is perpendicular to both the E field and the B field. When we have resistors getting hot, bulbs glowing, motor moving, and generators providing electrical energy, it's because of energy movements between the fields and matter.

Nah! Too far over my head. I like KISS - or Keeping It Stupidly Simple. The drain pipe doesn't convey the capacity of the current like your formula does but it gives the idea that current is something moving. Whether it's water or electrons - current is current.

And I don't take offense at your correction. It's just more than my brain pan can handle. What with all the dents and dings it has received in life.

 

I think we've gotten off on a tangent with this thread.

The generator can be likened to a person on a bicycle. When the load is light it's easy to pedal. Like flat ground or going slightly down hill. There are many forms of resistance. Wind for one and angle of attack is another. If you're pedaling up hill it's going to take more energy from the bicyclist. Pedaling against the wind is going to take more energy. I know! I've experienced strong head winds when riding to the beach. Sadly, in the afternoon when returning home the winds would typically shift to a late day pattern and I'd be pedaling against the wind again. It's like walking to school up hill both ways.

 

Nah! Too far over my head. I like KISS - or Keeping It Stupidly Simple. The drain pipe doesn't convey the capacity of the current like your formula does but it gives the idea that current is something moving. Whether it's water or electrons - current is current.

And I don't take offense at your correction. It's just more than my brain pan can handle. What with all the dents and dings it has received in life.

That's the problem, current is not current when it comes to electrical energy. It's simply a similar name used for something fundamentally different in energy system operation. I'm not asking for people to understand even simple Vector calculus, I hoping people to the open to simple scientific facts instead of bad analogies.

 

I think we've gotten off on a tangent with this thread.

The generator can be likened to a person on a bicycle. When the load is light it's easy to pedal. Like flat ground or going slightly down hill. There are many forms of resistance. Wind for one and angle of attack is another. If you're pedaling up hill it's going to take more energy from the bicyclist. Pedaling against the wind is going to take more energy. I know! I've experienced strong head winds when riding to the beach. Sadly, in the afternoon when returning home the winds would typically shift to a late day pattern and I'd be pedaling against the wind again. It's like walking to school up hill both ways.

Not really a tangent IMO as knowing the real reason is important. I do like the bicycle (chain) energy transfer analogy much better (but not 100% accurate) than water.
http://www.gonder.org.tr/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/ElectricityTandem.pdf
The Electrical System as a Tandem Bicycle

The links in the chain simply move round and round (like current in a circuit) with a small amount of KE of their physical mass but they transfer a much larger amount of energy from the human activated gears to the gears on the wheel that move the bike in what we would call, Tension. Tension was once popular as a name for (electrical) potential difference.

The links/electrons/charge carriers provide mechanisms for tension (EM fields for electrical energy) to be used as the carrier for energy but those same mechanisms of links/electrons/charge carriers don't actually carry the moving energy of the system, tension (in various forms) does.