This may not be relavent, but betwean the 2 world wars the German monetry system collapsed. Many people were bankrupt (not sure how the banks fared but i bet they had all the assets). Out of the wrecked economy rose the Nazi party offering employment rebuilding Germany. This is where dangerous politics can come into the picture. (Sorry about the politics bit but they are tied together).

It is actually scary how many parallels can be drawn between present day america and pre-WWII germany.

 

It is actually scary how many parallels can be drawn between present day america and pre-WWII germany

Since I don't live there I can only draw conclusions as an outsider.

However the USA also suffered economic woes in the depression, but did not embrace National Socialism.

One outstanding difference then and now is that the USA is naturally resource rich, unlike Germany.
The Nazi 'economic miracle' was founded on two undesireable activities viz slave labour and the seizing the resources of others.

 

... the USA also suffered economic woes in the depression, but did not embrace National Socialism.

Those were different people. Those people were, or were only a generation or two away from being, first generation immigrants. They did not wear percieved oppression/entitlement goggles; they were motivated, had pioneer spirit, and were not afraid to work for their keep. The people of 2012 are no comparison. We are raised to ask not what we can do for our country, but what our country can do for us. Our lips are pursed in preparation to latch onto a socialist government teat; no brainwashing or cohercing would be necessary. There will be an overwhelming preexisting support for it this time.

Once outstanding difference then and now is that the USA is natural resource rich, unlike Germany.
The Nazi 'economic miracle' was founded on two undesireable activities viz slave labour and seizing the resources of others.

Yes we are resource rich but we also are home to billions of people and are crippled in our ability to make use of our resources by our own environmental benevolence. I don't have any data on what the people/resource ratio was in germany at the time, but my hunch is that if you were to compare that ratio to the people/resource ratio of Today's America there might not be much difference. Not at all sure on that, pretty much talking from my anus.

 

Its not untill the people are in desperate situations & the right timing for a leader to apear. If this leader apears to offer a solution to a problem, then they will probably suport that leader. The end result may not be what they expect.

 

There is a base assumption society is static, it isn't. Population growth definitely factors in, but at some point that has to become static or it gets very crowded.

I think I can agree on this and everything else you said.
One obstacle for the changes we want is the slow pace you mentioned. It's so difficult to see any immediate effect of what you are doing when it comes to economical/political changes.

While I admit that unbridled population growth and consumption of natural resources is a legitimate issue, our monetary system is at the heart of our current problems.

IMO the current monetary system is only an effect, not the cause. The cause is human nature. I mean, look at us, in my opinion capitalism in it's current form has developed because of how we are made, with all our flaws. In other words, it seems to be the system that best fits human nature. It would go on and on forever if it weren't limited by ending natural resources and limited space to live.

Once outstanding difference then and now is that the USA is natural resource rich, unlike Germany.
The Nazi 'economic miracle' was founded on two undesireable activities viz slave labour and seizing the resources of others.

Sorry, but I think "seizing the resources of others" is very well applicable to the current global economical system.

 

The resources of your women in the U.S. was one of the first to be harmed.

Your women were fixed so they countn't have kids for a lot unfair reasons.

Some may have occcured before the war, some sweet darling social women.

Do gooder's helping young women to grow up right with out an education.

Do gooder's and there judge husbands.

 

I think it would be something like this I wish:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_democracy

Why is it that the represants we vote for are never doing what we expect them to do? For every major decision all affected people's opinions should be considered. But this would also mean that everybody has to be politically educated and that he would have to understand the impact of his decision... I wonder if this would actually be possible.

Damn, I'm changing the subject to politics myself.
No way out, it's all linked together.

If the thread has to be closed so be it.

 

No, its still history,we can speak about history as long as we stay away from

polictical parties. The occupy has turned to arrest on no charges,I go thru the

homeless mugshots and they say,no charges found. They are talking about our

beautiful beaches and tourist, so it arrest everyone for any little charge that

on the books,littering, peeing on a tree.

 

IMO the current monetary system is only an effect, not the cause. The cause is human nature. I mean, look at us, in my opinion capitalism in it's current form has developed because of how we are made, with all our flaws. In other words, it seems to be the system that best fits human nature. It would go on and on forever if it weren't limited by ending natural resources and limited space to live.

I think I disagree with that. Capitalism is not embraced by everybody. It is being pushed onto/sold to the majority as the ONLY way of life. Those who fight it do not seem to come out so well. It fits best the self-serving human nature that seems to succeed when in power, thus becoming a self-propagating mechanism. How to overcome it? I do not know. Perfect example - look at what happened at Haiti, is that human nature? one aspect of it smothered by another, people have donated money to help rebuilt a country, no progress has been made as the other aspect of human nature comes into play - greed and corruption.

"[SIZE=-1]The mind is international and supra-national ... it ought to serve not war and annihilation, but peace and reconciliation." Hesse[/SIZE]

 

I think I disagree with that. Capitalism is not embraced by everybody. It is being pushed onto/sold to the majority as the ONLY way of life. Those who fight it do not seem to come out so well. It fits best the self-serving human nature that seems to succeed when in power, thus becoming a self-propagating mechanism. How to overcome it? I do not know. Perfect example - look at what happened at Haiti, is that human nature? one aspect of it smothered by another, people have donated money to help rebuilt a country, no progress has been made as the other aspect of human nature comes into play - greed and corruption.

"[SIZE=-1]The mind is international and supra-national ... it ought to serve not war and annihilation, but peace and reconciliation." Hesse[/SIZE]

Any system is embraced by those whom it is more likely to serve, which goes back to praondevou's point that we are all self serving. Capitalism is embraced by people who have money already, or have the determination & skill to earn money in a capitalist society. Socialism is embraced by those unskilled or underskilled or otherwise unable or unwilling to compete in a capitalsit society, which it is "the poor man's system", and that is why it creeps in after a period of incredible economic hardship, such as in Germany before WWII.

I think socialism suits small communities but on a nation-scale, never would be feasible. You would have to TAKE from those who already have, in order to distribute to those in need, which (taxes aside, I guess) is stealing. If all parties consent to be governed under socialism and they all come into the agreement with very little or nothing, then they start out equal and they stay equal, and all is good. But that only happens in small communities, you could never force a nation into it.

 

Perfect example - look at what happened at Haiti, is that human nature? one aspect of it smothered by another, people have donated money to help rebuilt a country, no progress has been made as the other aspect of human nature comes into play - greed and corruption.

I don't say we only have flaws. Human nature has many faces.

We like to help, this is why many of us are here, we like to be with our families and friends, we like to laugh, to be happy.

We also like to argue, to fight, to compete, to eliminate people who don't agree with us, we like to be doing nothing and have everything.

I feel every day that my motivation to work increases if a hard troubleshooting problem appears and I can prove that I'm able to solve it.
Recognition of achievements is important to us.

We like to build and we like to destroy. We have difficulties to feel other people's suffering.

We cannot classify human nature as we can do it with everything we built or invented or developed.

If you sum all our characteristics up you get exactly the system we have now.

Whatever you call the system, you will always find similarities, always find the same kind of people in the same situations / positions.

...

I'm still wondering what will the end of resources we are now so much depending on look like? Nobody can have the answer probably. It cannot be the current system, that's obvious.

 

I think socialism suits small communities but on a nation-scale, never would be feasible. You would have to TAKE from those who already have, in order to distribute to those in need, which (taxes aside, I guess) is stealing. If all parties consent to be governed under socialism and they all come into the agreement with very little or nothing, then they start out equal and they stay equal, and all is good. But that only happens in small communities, you could never force a nation into it.

They called it "socialism" where I was born and it was a lie.

Everything is achieved through brainwash since school. I remember that when the wall came down and we could go and see the West I was surprised about the differences between reality and what has been taught to us.
One thing is true though, more respect for teachers, no drugs at all (maybe alcohol), no weapons at schools, a public health care system which was not to bad I remember, hardly unemployment, a more united community. Actually I think one good thing was lesser economical inequalities between people.

But here comes the other side: The leaders who where teaching us the ideal of a better world without the "bad" capitalism where drinking wine and eating caviar meanwhile.
Technologically speaking we had a delay of decades compared to the West. People were enviously looking to the other side.

Why was this? Repression of economical development, therefore lack of motivation. There was nothing to gain from having great ideas, from trying to earn more and have a better life. My father can tell long stories about that.
The great outbreak was more from people wanting to consume, wanting to travel then anything else IMO. They were thaught otherwise but all brainwashing couldn't resist human nature. Freedom of choice where and how to live, with all it's disadvantages. Freedom of being able to develop, to create. It's what we like to do!

Where will our motivation be when there is nothing left we could build something from?

So many questions....

 

I just feel that everything has gotten out of hand that is all. I think we may be able to find out what the end of resources looks like (at least in my lifetime) unless things change drastically (refer to Bill's post )

About the other things, what I see here is the distribution of money from poor to the rich with how corporations get the tax breaks in the name of economic growth while consumers (tax-payers) are told that the savings will be passed on, charity write offs, campaign contributions and other things all legal with a beautiful agreement of one hand washes the other. I wish I was a bit older because I would have remembered the soviet regime a bit better.

I guess "all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds"

 

I find that, in general people here are much more brainwashed. Most people then knew what the gov't was upto. I am also always amazed at the inventiveness and ingenuity that went into acquiring banned publications - books, music etc. And the trust that had to exist between people as there was always a threat from the government. That is worth more than anything I can think of. Funny thing that no-one realized looking at the west is that here everyone lives on credit and does not actually own anything. But it does look pretty with the toxic lawns... Actually it turned out that the two systems are mirror images of each other, but the US is more paranoid always needing an "enemy" to keep people occupied. Just my observations.

 

There is lots of money made out of War!!

 

About the other things, what I see here is the distribution of money from poor to the rich with how corporations get the tax breaks in the name of economic growth while consumers (tax-payers) are told that the savings will be passed on, charity write offs, campaign contributions and other things all legal with a beautiful agreement of one hand washes the other.

Good point. I still can't help it, all the people represented by these corporations are people like us. They somehow came into this system. Everybody who gets involved in it will change.
That's how newcomers in politics with their great ideals are slowly being transformed. If a little boy steals a chewing gum in a store how will he behave as a politician, state leader, top manager later? How do we expect the people we elected to represent us to be different from everybody else? What do we expect from someone who rules a country , who has the power to deploy troups, police, who manages profits of a company, who can determine his own salary?? I say 99% of the people blaiming those who rule the world, who have the power today wouldn't do anything better if they were in their position.

The biggest obstacle of the "poor" mass is that it is not united, not educated enough to understand how changes can be made to make a better living for everybody.

One thing I forgot to add...There is another thing why simply equally distributing wealth to everybody doesn't work. The ones that work harder don't like to give everything away to those who prefer sitting in front of the TV and do nothing. Another reason why people were not content under the so-called soviet regime.

 

I think if we eliminated the (LEGAL) bribery that politicians have availed themselves of, it would work miracles. I believe also what you said about the newcomers being "clean" when they go in, and then being transformed. If they didn't have the examples of their superiors taking contributions from people with agendas, and then later having that same opportunity themselves, maybe they could stay "clean" through their whole career. Probably not, but maybe; the chances would be a lot higher. Whatever the next evolution is, this bribery needs to be written completely out of it.

 

They are not like us,they come from old money. The DuPonts have grandkid

names from marriage no one would know who they are. The same Rockerfellows

and other old money family.These kids are born with multi-million dollar trust funds.

By time they grow up ,you figure what they are worth and you don't know there

names by marriage. Just for starters.

 

I think if we eliminated the (LEGAL) bribery that politicians have availed themselves of, it would work miracles.

I wonder how this would be possible.

That's what I said about representative democracy vs participative democracy. Where the whole thing goes wrong if we let them decide everything without having control about their decisions.

Even if they are not being re-elected after a few years, they couldn't care less. It's so funny that we are ruled by institutions when it should be them who serve us. Same with banks. For us letting them speculate/invest our (little) money we have to pay an account maintenance fee... Laughable.

 

They are not like us,they come from old money. The DuPonts have grandkid

names from marriage no one would know who they are. The same Rockerfellows

and other old money family.These kids are born with multi-million dollar trust funds.

By time they grow up ,you figure what they are worth and you don't know there

names by marriage. Just for starters.

For some this may be true. But not for all the top managers, corporations, businessmen. Unless you say that those too, they are just marionettes in the very few very rich people's hands. I don't know nothing about those people. I don't envy them. I don't know what else I need for a better life.

I'm a very bad contributor to economic growth. Oddly I depend on other people spending money on the products I help to develop.