# What Stabilizes The Electron Orbit In An Atom?

Discussion in 'Physics' started by Glenn Holland, Aug 3, 2017.

1. ### Glenn Holland Thread Starter Member

Dec 26, 2014
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OK - If you don't like my continued inquisitiveness about quantum mechanics, I'm going to post a new thread called the "Twilight Zone" where people can post questions and answers about witchcraft, exorcism, and how haunted houses could be purged of demons.

2. ### nsaspook AAC Fanatic!

Aug 27, 2009
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I've no problem with questions but your current line of questions point to a "Twilight Zone" of misunderstanding. Step back, read the basic texts, watch the basic videos so you can ask reasonable questions.

3. ### Motanache Member

Mar 2, 2015
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron–positron_annihilation

When the electron meets his soulmate, the positron, they annihilated each other and two gamma quantaes appear. 511Kev each.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_production
The reverse process, when a radiation of 2x511KeV passes through the proximity of matter, It gives birth to a electron-positron pair.

4. ### Motanache Member

Mar 2, 2015
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That's why they asked you to post # 20 to imagine nothing. That's how they do. You do not do that!

We work with models. They are not perfect.
In mathematics, the rule with preferential exceptions is absurd.

The Bohr model that includes quantification of the electron's energy on the orbit, only explain the energy of the electron of the quantum number n (n=1,2,3,4..... corresponding to shell in chemistry - K,L,M.....)

This model does not explain the electron energy on the subshell. quatum number l=....

It does not even not explain the probabilities of transition.
Why is white LED spectrum so?

But for shell M, n=3. The de Broglie(not electromagnetic wave) wavelength enters 3 times in the orbit size.
It has 3 maximums and 3 minimums. Where is the electron? In all three points?

From ECPSSR model, when a proton hits a body with a certain speed, the maximum probability is to extract that electron that has an orbit speed approximately the incident proton speed.

Having the same speeds have a longer interaction time, the proton has time to "persuade" the electron to leave the atom.

Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
5. ### Motanache Member

Mar 2, 2015
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I have come to the following conclusions-

The electron behaves like the wave only near the atomic nucleus. Let me know please if I'm wrong.
It seems the nucleus is playing a music that the electron has to play.
(Electron-spin/nuclear-spin interactions)

de Broglie wavelength
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_wave

??????????

Einstein was a good student with great grades -
Brilliant in math

The exam can not check creativity. Although pedagogy teaches us that it can. Let the student compose a response. And what grade do you give, what is the scale?

Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
6. ### Glenn Holland Thread Starter Member

Dec 26, 2014
443
138
If the electron in an atom exists in the form of an electromagnetic wave (EMW) in a "shell" wrapped around the nucleus, it seems that the negative peak of the wave would represent the peak negative charge of the electron. If the EMW is a traveling wave, then would the moving negative half of wave represent the moving electron?

Since an EMW has a magnetic component (at a right angle to the electric component), then what is the effect of the magnetic field on an atomic electron?

Also, if an atomic electron is actually an EMW (rather than a discrete particle), then what represents the electron's spin?

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7. ### nsaspook AAC Fanatic!

Aug 27, 2009
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Electrons are not electromagnetic waves. I've no idea if that comes from this kook paper or what but it's simply not possible in classical or QM.
http://vixra.org/pdf/1106.0006v1.pdf

Charge is not a property of electromagnetic waves (electromagnetic waves are produced whenever charged particles are accelerated and represent the changed fields of those charged particles) and the wave duality of the photon is also charge-less.

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8. ### Glenn Holland Thread Starter Member

Dec 26, 2014
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OK - In the De Broglie electron scattering experiment, what exactly are the "waves" that produced the interference patterns? Seems the electrons themselves produced a scattering pattern like they were some kind of waves, but they actually retained a particle characteristic. Then what kind of wave is an atomic electron?

9. ### nsaspook AAC Fanatic!

Aug 27, 2009
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They are De Broglie matter waves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_wave#The_de_Broglie_hypothesis

10. ### Motanache Member

Mar 2, 2015
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And the atom is charge-less That's because the negative charge is equal to the positive one. If we remove an electron it becomes positive.

Can this be done with the wave?
Crazyness, right?

?
deceleration(bremsstrahlung)

Last edited: Aug 17, 2017 at 9:45 AM
11. ### nsaspook AAC Fanatic!

Aug 27, 2009
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Enter PEDANTIC mode.

Acceleration is a vector quantity and it can be either positive or negative in value.
https://socratic.org/questions/why-is-acceleration-a-vector-quantity

The Bremsstrahlung photon is produced at the time of the vector change because of conservation of mass/energy if there is a loss of kinetic energy.

http://www.studyphysics.ca/newnotes/20/unit01_kinematicsdynamics/chp04_acceleration/lesson10.htm

Last edited: Aug 17, 2017 at 4:21 PM
12. ### Motanache Member

Mar 2, 2015
316
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Do you know how I see the subatomic world?
Imagine a superfluid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfluidity

A fluid that is full lacking friction.
In this fluid appear wave and they can not disappear due to friction. This is the equivalent in my model of electromagnetic wave.

(Be careful, it's just my model.I did not copy it, I do not know it is somewhere. I would be very glad, instead, if others have this idea)

This is where in superfluid under certain conditions it transforms into stationary wave or vortex. This is the equivalent in my model of particle.
A vortex can interact with another vortex at a certain distance.This is the equivalent in my model of interactions at distance.

Repeat. It's just my model. I'm not saying it's right.
It's a theory that would make fire me from any serious job in science.

13. ### Papabravo Expert

Feb 24, 2006
11,026
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Whenever you have a vector quantity, it can change in two entirely different ways:
1. The magnitude can increase or decrease
2. The direction can change

14. ### Glenn Holland Thread Starter Member

Dec 26, 2014
443
138
If an atomic electron is actually a wave phenomenon, then what are other atomic electron waves interacting with when a chemical bond (such as a covalant bond) is formed?

Seems there must be some kind of "center of charge" in the so called "electron cloud" that's interacting with other charge centers. Or does this electron cloud have a homogeneous charge that's spread evenly around the nucleus?

15. ### BR-549 Distinguished Member

Sep 22, 2013
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I think that electric fields can only attract or repel.......it's the magnetic flux that makes a physical bond.

16. ### nsaspook AAC Fanatic!

Aug 27, 2009
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Saying 'actually' is the main conceptual problem. Actually, we don't know (and maybe never will know) the reality. What we do know is the results from experiments and observations of our theories that predict what's happening. Electrons seem to propagates through space like a wave while it interacts at a point like a particle. All experiments so far have proved that quantum theory is correct and that our notion of reality is at fault.

Richard Feynman
The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be."

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17. ### Glenn Holland Thread Starter Member

Dec 26, 2014
443
138
If an electron wave can be represented by simple equation such as A = Amax Sin wx where
A = the amplitude at any instant
w = the angular frequency

Then what is the "amplitude" and what is x? Is x a function of time or the distance along the path around the nucleus? When the value of Sin wx is zero, then does the electron also go to zero?

18. ### Glenn Holland Thread Starter Member

Dec 26, 2014
443
138
From my reading on this subject, a fast moving electron has a De Broglie wave length about the same length as X Rays. If one electron equals one wave length, then I can visualize how a traveling electron wave will interact with a stationary "particle" such as another electron or a photon. The interaction might be something like a water wave moving past a floating object.

However as I asked in a previous post, what is the electron wave composed of -IE- is it the components of an electric or magnetic field or something else? Is the displacement of the wave transverse to the direction of travel (like light) or longitudinal (like a sound wave)?

Last edited: Aug 17, 2017 at 10:58 PM
19. ### nsaspook AAC Fanatic!

Aug 27, 2009
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It's pretty clear that de Broglie "matter waves" don't work as the components of an electric or magnetic field or something else and have been replaced by QM.
http://www.chemistry.mcmaster.ca/esam/Chapter_1/intro.html
http://www.chemistry.mcmaster.ca/esam/Chapter_2/section_2.html

20. ### Motanache Member

Mar 2, 2015
316
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We had an electric field - reference to the capacitor
We had a magnetic field - reference the coil
(I'm sorry I know you know that, but it's good to make the discussion clear)

Radio waves are electromagnetic waves. It was later discovered that light is part of the same category.