I dont think thats accurate or "real" capacitance. if the spoons are the same metal not charged or anything. your probably just reading the resistance across the salt-water-metal solution. which is highly conductive and nearly a short circuit like a metal wire.

 

I'm trying a new design. Flate disk-shaped plates. Coiled wire like a spring. but flattened
Pressed flat in a sandwich with three layers. with a clothes pin to hold them together. with two smaller abrasive disks to keep them more evenly "flat" together.
Using 3 layers of coffee filter as the separator to prevent a short.

They are taking a charge much much faster. lower internal resistance. BUT its an extremely slow process. and you have to wait.

Update: I had to completely separate the plates to do the forming charge. they really need to be able to "breathe" to form properly. as well as having the electrolyte flowing and moving

News. it was a very messy and slow process but ive managed to get it working!

 

That was a nightmare. ugh. So many bad connections. everywhere! was a nightmare to fix. but now its working again

Soldering wire is so flimsy and easily broken once you bend it too many times. very fragile.

 

Soldering wire is so flimsy and easily broken...

Just, ummmm, solder the pieces back together.

 

You can't. if it breaks where the lead oxide/dioxe is formed. it won't work. it just beads and pushes away. Flux won't help with that either. the lead is "cooked"

The only way is to carefully scrape it with some fine sandpaper to get some bare metal exposed. then twist the wires together carefully enough times to form a connection. Then double back and twist the extension wire back on the twist to prevent it from moving around

Also i'm really confused what this white precipitate or "cloudyness" is. it appears with only magnesium sulfate as the electrolyte.

 

Using just baking soda doesn't appear to create any precipitate. but it still affects the lead metal in some way. oxidizing it in some way. and creates capacity slowly.

if I want more capacity do I want more surface area? so keep reversing the polarity over and over until it starts slowing down in gaining performance?
Since its basically just solid tin-lead. is it just going to take a super long time? to convert layers deeper into the core of the soldering wire.

 

(Google translated from Russian)
DIY simplest lead alkaline rechargeable battery
1960 y., USSR, for 7-grade students.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Source: https://topliba.com/files/363451/fb2

 

That seems like a lot of work!

 

After even more testing. it seems like a few conditions need to be met for this to work.
Just epsom salt/magnesium sulfate. limit the current to something low and moderate. Nothing too high or active material will get stripped off of the electrodes.
Do not have the electrodes too close together. Definitely don't have them in a separator sandwich. need to have at least a physical gap with free electrolyte between them.
And wait.... a very long time. it takes forever to convert the tin-lead soldering wire to active material. Like many hours.
but the longer you charge it for at a low rate. the more capacity you get. it takes a really long time at first. but eventually the capacity will grow higher.
it may even take days to get the capacity up.
straight lead would probably work a lot better than the significantly lower lead content in soldering wire. lol

Also you need a fully saturated solution of the epsom salt/magnesium sulfate. with some remaining on the bottom as precipitate. even at elevated temperatures (up to 100*F probably) to make sure the internal resistance is as low as possible.

Also noticed it helps to give a very very long slow charge at a low current letting the voltage go to whatever it wants. which turns the electrode from just dark. to a dark slightly brownish color. but only the correct electrode! positive. and clean and uniformly. not messy looking or damaged.
It seems it doesn't hurt anything for the electrode color to be brown or whatever. as long as its charged well and not too fast
I wonder where/how the capacity is stored in such a type of battery. lead-tin magnesium sulfate

The generated cloudiness or white precipitate must be some form of lead-magnesium based precipitate. conductive yet innert and likes to stick to the plates if not given enough room to disperse. or formed too quickly (grows larger chunks)
This is so mysterious! No sulfuric acid at all. Yet it still has the ability to charge and store energy for later discharge. Whats the conductive medium for the reaction? Is sulfuric acid not neccessary at all? Or just one of the options for an electrolyte solution? Does magnesium sulfate just substitute sulfuric acid as an conductive electrolyte. and the reaction still occurs. but at a lower (more diluted like) rate compared to sulfuric acid?

I also added a small amount of boric acid powder dissolved into the solution at the beginning Not conductive but seems to make the electrolyte "cleaner" like diluting or reacting with impurities in some way making the electrolyte less dirty. Seems to help only slightly. reduces leakage current. Does not affect the capacity or voltage. just seems to be a weak "additive" to make the reaction go a bit smoother. Only a tiny bit is needed.

This has me wondering. if the myth or legend about epsom salt/magnesium sulfate being able to revive lead acid batteries. if they are in a sulfated condition. but the underlying electrode material is still good. then prolonged charging or overcharging at low to moderate rates would be able to revive the electrodes.

However the amount of epsom salt/magnesium sulfate required would be quite a lot. and I believe you would need to charge the battery for a prolonged period of time. it may also benefit replacing the electrolyte several times throughout the process. so it doesn't get diluted by precipitates.

I wonder if it would also be enough to just charge the battery without adding anything. for a prolonged period of time. at a low current. Not enough to damage the plates. but gently disturb and break up any larger sulfates.

Would work best in a flooded type of battery.

 

ok now things are getting even more interesting. I again replaced the electrolyte with like 90-95% boric acid with the remaining 5-10% of magnesium sulfate. Mixed thoroughly. seems to hold voltage for a lot longer when discharging. and higher as well.
The magnesium sulfate being a way as an additive and starting catalyst for forming the electrodes. and the boric acid as the main "body" of the electrolyte.
Other ratios possibly may provide more performance but I'm not sure.
magnesium sulfate also raising the fully charged resting voltage a little as well as when under load.

the electrodes need to be very close to each other for more performance and current. Almost touching even.

I stumbled on this article and its got a lot of very fascinating results. https://www.rainingspiritdojo.com.a...cidsulphates-overview-dominichawkins-v1.5.pdf

I think very thin sheets/rolls of solid lead for the electrodes to maximize both surface area and having them as close together as possible nearly touching or with only a very thin porous separator would maximize the capacity and current output.
Limiting the current by amps or watts per surface area seems to work the best. That way I get a stable result.

 

ok too much magnesium sulfate causes a rapid buildup on the negative plate. which only dislodges when discharged then charged in reverse.
boric acid I'm not sure does much.
Charging for longer. or as long as possible. seems to help. more than anything else. with just baking soda.
You have to charge for longer and longer each time the charge is reversed. So that the entire electrodes are fully converted to their different forms.
Having them close together speeds up that process.
No noticable precipitate when using only baking soda and nothing else.

 

I tried yet another different design. Similar to the first hot glue stick one. but its a bit smaller. and made a lot neater.
I used more layers of paper towel for the separator. so no way at all the plates could come into contact with each other.

I used some on all sides and surfaces. so its even got some recombination ability! Forming like this needs to be done very slowly. and in diluted solution. (not full saturation so any precipitate can immediately be re-dissolved if it forms. so it can't damage the electrode surfaces or anything)

 

Similar chemistry:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20050233216A1/en

and this one
https://patents.google.com/patent/CN1450679A/en
seems to patent something very similar!

 

I don't even know anymore. seems like just surface area + baking soda = win every time.
its able to dump very high currents in short time like a capacitor. but it doesn't have a lot of "reserve" capacity.
Like 2 amps for a few seconds. like a small super capacitor.
but its capacity is very small.
Do I just need to go solid lead + thin plates rolled up to make a larger battery?
The positive turns a very very dark chocolate brown color. Almost black depending on the ambient lighting.
The negative is a dark dull grey color.

Would washing soda work faster? I think I could make some by baking it in the oven. How much more effective would it be? baking soda is very slow to penetrate into the lead surface.

 

Tried my homemade washing soda. Not sure if 1 hour was enough. it seemed to work. not sure if its fully converted.
Seems to work pretty much the same. Almost identical result. Just slightly lower internal resistance. slightly higher initial discharge voltage under load.

I think I just don't have anywhere near enough surface area.
I think the only way I could really get a good battery is rolls of very thin lead electrodes. rolled up tightly.
0.6mm is probably thin enough while still being workable.
Not sure if tin matters to be in the lead or not.

I tried again with very some very small electrodes.
Seems like I have to nearly charge it both ways for at least a full hour uninterrupted for it to have maximum capacity. at a low current
and it seems to only require baking soda as the electrolyte to work. No difference with washing soda..

update: back to baking soda.
Got nearly 6 minutes of runtime with a small DC motor and like a few inches of soldering wire coiled like a spring. next to each other. even with the low content of lead.
I imagine with like 100 times the surface area. like with pure lead electrodes rolled up tightly it would run for like 600+ minutes
Also helps to have the plates as close as possible and maximizing the amount of surface area to an absolutely ludicrous degree.

its about 1.5-1.6v open circuit fully charged. 50% gives about 1.2v-something and close to empty it will want to self-discharge itself to 0v
I wonder if this is similar phenomenon that happens with lead-acid batteries. Discharge too close to empty. and they will want to discharge themselves faster. to 0v

For some reason forming the battery alternatingly back and forth between a mixture of washing soda and baking soda seems to enhance the capacity storing ability.
Got up to 8:30 minutes with baking soda electrolyte now!
When discharging. the negative electrode turns very dark. and the positive becomes a lighter color of brown.
I think a combination electrolyte between baking soda and washing soda would work best. but I have no clue what the ratios would be.

When very thoroughly formed. the voltage springs back up to over 1v. EVEN after discharging until the motor stopped turning. (about 0.17v!)
That means with enormously higher surface area. the voltage under load would stay well above 1v the entire usable discharge range.

it is almost in a way similar to a super capacitor battery. just with a lower open circuit voltage. Lasts longer than a super capacitor as well. With a lot less material used. You could use 0.2mm sheets of lead if you were careful enough. You could cram watt hours into a small lead-alkaline battery

 

Yet again another new design. This time I hammered the soldering wire into a flat long thin strip.
Two lengths. then took some paper towel. and coiled them together carefully.
So its maximum surface area all the way around.theres only one "loop" at the outside end that isn't in close proximity to the other electrode.
Both surfaces of both electrodes are almost touching with just one strip of paper towel separating the layers.
Along with the surface area dramatically increased by the soldering wire being hammered flat and thin. increasing the conductivity of it.

I also noticed dramatically fewer bubbles when charging and discharging. Almost none. Where are the gasses generated going?
Are they clogging the pores of the paper separator? Or recombining and generating a small amount of heat?

Due to the plates being so thin and so close together for a while i'm limiting the charge current to just a few milliamps. about 20-40mA

 

I suggest that it is unsafe to use a beverage and lead together, given the known toxic effects of lead. I am aware that it is an experiment, I am also aware that unfortunate things happen when nobody is watching.

 

Beverage? Who said anything about a beverage? Nothing is being ingested.
None of these liquids should be in a drink. where did you get that idea?

 

looks like I'm making sodium sulfate? Apparently its a decent replacement for sulfuric acid. and although it doesn't quite reach the capacity. it should be able to output a lot of amps.
Created by mixing epsom salt and baking soda.

 

Beverage? Who said anything about a beverage? Nothing is being ingested.
None of these liquids should be in a drink. where did you get that idea?

I saw a reference to lemon someplace, at least I think that I did. That was the reason for the caution suggestion. Not trying to be a panic-monger.
Now that I go back and search for that reference I do not see it again. So maybe it was removed? Posts can be edited long after the fact.

Now I offer a suggestion, which is that discovering the chemical reaction that is happening will provide a lot more understanding of how the electrical energy is being produced. And it seems that the purpose has been education.