The higher voltage will shorten the life of a filament-type headlight and that is the bad news. And if my battery lasts longer than the warranty, well I should hope so!! And if a half charged battery is all I need then that is good news indeed. My trips to work must always have been long enough to mostly recharge the battery, they always seemed to be at least ten miles at the very shortest, 20 at quite a few jobs. Of course I did not need to crank the engine 30 seconds to start, which makes a big difference.
The 48 volt system got a big push when some fools suggested that an electrically heated catalytic converter, brought up to working temperature, would be a good idea. they suggested that it could not take more than a minute or so before the engine would be allowed to crank. The current draw would have been about the same as cold cranking the engine for that minute. So the 48 volt battery pack would be needed to reduce the number of fully discharged batteries.
The good news is that the dumb idea of converter pre-heating never went farther.

 

The higher voltage will shorten the life of a filament-type headlight and that is the bad news. And if my battery lasts longer than the warranty, well I should hope so!! And if a half charged battery is all I need then that is good news indeed. My trips to work must always have been long enough to mostly recharge the battery, they always seemed to be at least ten miles at the very shortest, 20 at quite a few jobs. Of course I did not need to crank the engine 30 seconds to start, which makes a big difference.
The 48 volt system got a big push when some fools suggested that an electrically heated catalytic converter, brought up to working temperature, would be a good idea. they suggested that it could not take more than a minute or so before the engine would be allowed to crank. The current draw would have been about the same as cold cranking the engine for that minute. So the 48 volt battery pack would be needed to reduce the number of fully discharged batteries.
The good news is that the dumb idea of converter pre-heating never went farther.

That's interesting too. Glad they did not keep doing it that way.

What else dawned on me is that maybe the battery quality went down over time. Maybe the batteries we buy today are not as good as the ones we bought say back in 1998. That would make a BIG difference because the series impedance plays a huge role in the proper charging of a battery, almost every type. If the impedance goes up by a factor of 2 (like it would as it gets old) then the charge current goes down by a factor of 1/2. That's a big change for short drive times. If they do not make them as good as they used to, then we might get batteries that already have higher-than-what-it-should-be impedance. This is a possibility because manufacturers always try to reduce costs, and part of that process involves failure rate, and if the failure rate does not increase that much, they may find shortcuts or mods that saves THEM money even though the end user gets a poorer product. They would naturally assume a user would drive back and forth to work every day.

 

Server Supply

I’ve purchased a number of high current supplies over the years at half the cost.

 

Server Supply

I’ve purchased a number of high current supplies over the years at half the cost.

Once again, I suggest surplus 5 volt supplies in series. Adjust them down to a bit more than 4 volts. They are obsolete because big systems no longer use TTL logic.

 

Server Supply

I’ve purchased a number of high current supplies over the years at half the cost.

I was surprised to find you can get 30 volt 10 amp switching power supplies for less than $40 USD now.
The ones I got years ago were about $250 USD each, although they had linear back ends too.

 

@MrAl I'm not going to argue your findings as I have not ever bothered to record the data myself. I will say that every battery in every car I have ever owned has far outlasted the warranty period and started every day even when it was down to -10F and windier than can be. The only time I ever had troubles it was not battery related. In my opinion that is all that really matters.

Just out of curiosity I went out and measured the voltage on the battery in my truck that I haven't moved in almost two weeks now. I bought it used two years ago and so it's hard telling how old the battery is and it showed 12.55 V.

I still say even with all the data the real answer is just to not leave your car sit for that long. Mechanically speaking it's better to move it every couple weeks anyways to cycle the fluids, lubricate seals, splash oils around, and the like.

 

@MrAl I'm not going to argue your findings as I have not ever bothered to record the data myself. I will say that every battery in every car I have ever owned has far outlasted the warranty period and started every day even when it was down to -10F and windier than can be. The only time I ever had troubles it was not battery related. In my opinion that is all that really matters.

Just out of curiosity I went out and measured the voltage on the battery in my truck that I haven't moved in almost two weeks now. I bought it used two years ago and so it's hard telling how old the battery is and it showed 12.55 V.

I still say even with all the data the real answer is just to not leave your car sit for that long. Mechanically speaking it's better to move it every couple weeks anyways to cycle the fluids, lubricate seals, splash oils around, and the like.

Hi,

Oh sure, no need to argue, just present the facts as you have found them that's the best any of us can do. Conflicting data simply means more detail is needed or more research. There is no need to call anyone's integrity into question.

I have had similar experiences too. I had Walmart batteries outlast the warrantee period. The only time I had to buy a new one was when the car would not start one day in the cold, and that was a pain in the neck to deal with so that is part of what started me looking into this in more detail.

After all these years, I think with what I have found, is that if we had say a Walmart battery that was guaranteed for 2 years and lasted 3 years before that fateful day in the cold when it did not start, if the charging system was better it would have lasted 4 years for example, maybe even longer. Could it have lasted for a less time? I suppose that's a possibility because I had no test for that.

But there has to be a good reason why I could buy a battery that measured 12.6v when new, then a few months later measure only 12.0v when resting, and there must be some loss of capacity. That was with a charging voltage of around 14.0 to 14.1 volts.
I have also read that there is sulfation when not charged adequately.

Maybe what you could measure next is the charging voltage on your car that you measured that 12.55 volts on. It would be interesting to find that out too. Other cars that I have measured that do not usually have too much problem with their batteries measured around 14.3 to 14.4 volts. You should measure the voltage after a night of sitting with no engine running, and measure right after the car starts and after any delay that might be imposed by the charging system (sometimes could be several seconds). Also, the outside temperature needs to be measured at least approximately.
BTW you need to use a good meter. I use meters that were compared to expensive bench meters which were also checked with a voltage standard. The bench meters price range was $350 USD to about $500 USD, and have many more digits than the meters used to do the measurements. The long time data voltage measurement technique was calibrated with one of these meters also.

 

A RATHER FAR OFF FROM THE INTERESTING DISCUSSION, AND INTO A BORING ARGUMENT.

(Apology to the moderators for such harsh words.)

 

A RATHER FAR OFF FROM THE INTERESTING DISCUSSION, AND INTO A BORING ARGUMENT.

(Apology to the moderators for such harsh words.)

It's a bit cynical to call a decent discussion an argument.

 

In low cost replacement lead acid batteries knowledgeable people who take them apart and test them have said:
There is brown mud in the bottom of the battery compartment that builds up and eventually shorts out the battery.
" I am not sure if that is because of the quality of electrolyte, cheap lead battery plates, plate clearance or all of those. "
A car battery is not what they used to be, as the parts man explains there is no refund for the low expected life battery.
It keeps auto parts stores open by, selling windshield wipers, batteries and lights ect. The battery rebuilding is related.

 

In low cost replacement lead acid batteries knowledgeable people who take them apart and test them have said:
There is brown mud in the bottom of the battery compartment that builds up and eventually shorts out the battery.
" I am not sure if that is because of the quality of electrolyte, cheap lead battery plates, plate clearance or all of those. "
A car battery is not what they used to be, as the parts man explains there is no refund for the low expected life battery.
It keeps auto parts stores open by, selling windshield wipers, batteries and lights ect. The battery rebuilding is related.

A friend oof mine, a few years back, kept purchasing one brand of battery because of the warranty discount he got due to their early failure. The dealer claimed the failures were because his charging system was inadequate. So I ran tests that showed both the voltage and the current were adequate. A few months later it was made public that said supplier was re-selling failed batteries after giving them a good washing. The brown mud was not a manufacturing problem, it was a recycling process omission result.
Sometimes you do not even get close to what you pay for.

 

I have to say we have strayed way off the original topic and I'm bowing out at this point. My original interest in this thread was the original topic and unfortunately I found a few points that didn't sit well and felt the need to chime in.

One thing I don't remember seeing in the original discussion was actually using a battery as a buffer as an alternator's field response most likely won't be fast enough to keep up with the current spikes associated with audio systems. At the very least I would expect sound quality issues and at most damaging voltage spikes similar to a load dump situation.

If I did miss that or something to that effect I apologize, but it hit me while doing dishes last night and I figured I would mention it.

 

Certainly adding a storage battery to an alternator system will make it smoother and tend to handle rapid load changes. It will also assure a reasonable startup as well.

 

I have to say we have strayed way off the original topic and I'm bowing out at this point. My original interest in this thread was the original topic and unfortunately I found a few points that didn't sit well and felt the need to chime in.

One thing I don't remember seeing in the original discussion was actually using a battery as a buffer as an alternator's field response most likely won't be fast enough to keep up with the current spikes associated with audio systems. At the very least I would expect sound quality issues and at most damaging voltage spikes similar to a load dump situation.

If I did miss that or something to that effect I apologize, but it hit me while doing dishes last night and I figured I would mention it.

Hi,

Just to note, really high power audio systems have to use very high value power supply capacitors with good current ratings. It's mostly about the base tones because they are of low frequency and tax the storage the most. The capacitor bank has to be able to hold the voltage level up when that deep, low frequency base tone comes through. That's the biggest challenge. If it can't, the base signal peaks get clipped and that results in a lot of extra distortion which can sound awful. It also limits the power output which reduces the volume for very low frequency base signals. Any voltage regulator in place still has to have some minimum input voltage in order to produce that base signal, so a better voltage regulator won't solve the problem.

 

Many high power car audio installs either relocate the battery near the amplifiers, add an additional battery near the amplifiers, and / or external capacitors near the amplifiers to help make sure the amplifiers have enough power to do their job. Even with all that a big enough system will cause lights to dim when the bass hits due to alternator lag.

No amount of high quality capacitors is going to help if there is not a good enough voltage source feeding them to begin with.

 

Many high power car audio installs either relocate the battery near the amplifiers, add an additional battery near the amplifiers, and / or external capacitors near the amplifiers to help make sure the amplifiers have enough power to do their job. Even with all that a big enough system will cause lights to dim when the bass hits due to alternator lag.

No amount of high quality capacitors is going to help if there is not a good enough voltage source feeding them to begin with.

Hi,

Yes, but large value capacitors are the key. That's because if there is not a good enough voltage source to begin with then there was an even bigger mess up on the design in the first place.
For example, if the power switch does not work then it never turns on at all. If a wire is broken, same thing. We could go on and on about possible failure modes.

If large value caps are added, it is presumed that everything else is OK of course. That means the caps get enough current to recharge them after a loud bass tone peak.

Some of the deep bass systems in cars I have heard just annoy other people and wonder how the drivers do not go deaf

 

Well I believe we pretty well covered alternators charging batteries.

That said has anyone noticed short of defective has anyone noticed an automotive battery with a 60 month warranty will fail at 61 months? Unlike batteries of years ago today's batteries work fine on Wednesday but go from working fine to being toast on Thursday? Years ago a failing battery became apparent but alas that was decades ago. I was a motor head during the 60s.

Here is a weird story which happened to me recently. About a year ago I bought a 2018 Chevy Tahoe. I love this thing and at purchase it only had a single key fob. Dealerships get about $500 for a new fob and programming it. I called Batteries Plus and it cost me under $100 for fob and programming. So as I am leaving I get a warning that my power steering will be inoperative and I thought that was strange, also that my tow package was not operational. How could adding a new programmed fob cause this? I took the vehicle back to my dealership and after a few days, they also gave me a loaner, they had it fixed. Well unknown to me my 2018 Tahoe uses electric for the power steering and tow package and once the computer sensed a failing battery it disables certain features. I got a new battery at no cost and it's been fine ever since. It started just fine and ran just fine other than those warnings I never would have guessed the battery was failing. No check engine light just strange symptoms.

Anyway moving along if the thread starter visits any major auto parts store they can see an alternator test stand and how an electric motor runs the alternator.

Ron

 

Some of the deep bass systems in cars I have heard just annoy other people and wonder how the drivers do not go deaf

I'll second that!! I also have feelings about the "music" normally coming from these systems, but I also know others would not appreciate my tastes either so I'll leave it at that.

It looks like I may have misunderstood your comment about the capacitors.

 

Well I believe we pretty well covered alternators charging batteries.

That said has anyone noticed short of defective has anyone noticed an automotive battery with a 60 month warranty will fail at 61 months? Unlike batteries of years ago today's batteries work fine on Wednesday but go from working fine to being toast on Thursday? Years ago a failing battery became apparent but alas that was decades ago. I was a motor head during the 60s.

Here is a weird story which happened to me recently. About a year ago I bought a 2018 Chevy Tahoe. I love this thing and at purchase it only had a single key fob. Dealerships get about $500 for a new fob and programming it. I called Batteries Plus and it cost me under $100 for fob and programming. So as I am leaving I get a warning that my power steering will be inoperative and I thought that was strange, also that my tow package was not operational. How could adding a new programmed fob cause this? I took the vehicle back to my dealership and after a few days, they also gave me a loaner, they had it fixed. Well unknown to me my 2018 Tahoe uses electric for the power steering and tow package and once the computer sensed a failing battery it disables certain features. I got a new battery at no cost and it's been fine ever since. It started just fine and ran just fine other than those warnings I never would have guessed the battery was failing. No check engine light just strange symptoms.

Anyway moving along if the thread starter visits any major auto parts store they can see an alternator test stand and how an electric motor runs the alternator.

Ron

Hi Ron,

Oh yes now that you mention it, I think we have an Autozone in town that will test your alternator if you bring it in, or test the whole system if you bring the car in.
I don't like the way they test though when they test the whole system. They more or less just look for a charging voltage, but do not worry about what it actually is, as long as it is maybe 13.8v or higher. That's not enough, so my car tested good one time when I knew it was not good at all because the charging voltage was too low.

That's interesting what you said about the fast battery failure. I actually had that happen and still don't know why. It wasn't even cold outside. The battery was fine and I tested it with my meters of course. Then a few days later I went out and the battery was stone cold dead, not even 1 volt. A friend of mine got me a new battery for about $120 and it's been doing fine the past year and a half. Since winter is coming now around the New Jersey area of the country, I am watching the battery closer now.

Hope you and yours are doing well this coming season.

 

I have a 110v 2hp motor that has 3450 Rpm. Can it spin a car alternator (180amp) ? The alternator will be doing it's intended job. Charging a pair of AGM batteries and supplying power for a 12v system (lights and car audio). Basically I just want the electric motor to be the car motor. Thanks in advance.

Oh my . . .
If you can live with not fully charged batteries, a power supply like a Mean Well RSP-3000-12 would come for some 3-digit $$$. When buffered by a battery (one should suffice) you might get away without a choke for noise suppression. (I didn't check the datasheet but usually you can tweak the nominal 12 V output by ±5 or 10 %. So you might get 12.6 or 13.2 V output.)