As I keep saying, we are already getting rolling blackouts. You talk as if there is no problems, they are already here.

 

Hello,

There are also new developments with solar energy and nano wires:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-03/uoc--nsc032013.php
They are only on laboratory scale right now.

Bertus

 

Interesting stuff, guys (and gals). My view on this is so simplistic that I dare not stick my toe in the water.

"My roof has solar cells and they run my air conditioner, most of the time. Sometimes, I sell to the utility company, sometimes I buy from them. If most of Florida is covered with clouds, most of Oklahoma (or some other nearby state) won't be. If it is night time, most of the businesses will close and most of the people will be asleep." That's about as far as I have gone on this one.

But I have had a thought about, "unexpected loads". There have been nights when the temperatures got down near the freezing point of water in Florida. The weather reports had been sensationalizing the situation for days. The power went out and the power company said they had not expected a city of 3 million people to turn their electric heat on that night. What the <snip> do you mean, "unexpected loads"?!

The same has happened the other way. Weather people sensationalizing a heat wave in the next few days. Temperatures get over 100F. The line voltage starts dropping and local circuit breakers (1 or 2 square miles each) start popping. The electric power company says the extra load was "unexpected". They only had 3 days warning.

So, Bill, you want to steer me to which kind of "unexpected loads" you were referencing in post #56?

 

Interesting stuff, guys (and gals). My view on this is so simplistic that I dare not stick my toe in the water.

"My roof has solar cells and they run my air conditioner, most of the time. Sometimes, I sell to the utility company, sometimes I buy from them. If most of Florida is covered with clouds, most of Oklahoma (or some other nearby state) won't be. If it is night time, most of the businesses will close and most of the people will be asleep." That's about as far as I have gone on this one.

But I have had a thought about, "unexpected loads". There have been nights when the temperatures got down near the freezing point of water in Florida. The weather reports had been sensationalizing the situation for days. The power went out and the power company said they had not expected a city of 3 million people to turn their electric heat on that night. What the <snip> do you mean, "unexpected loads"?!

The same has happened the other way. Weather people sensationalizing a heat wave in the next few days. Temperatures get over 100F. The line voltage starts dropping and local circuit breakers (1 or 2 square miles each) start popping. The electric power company says the extra load was "unexpected". They only had 3 days warning.

So, Bill, you want to steer me to which kind of "unexpected loads" you were referencing in post #56?

I know this aws not directed at me but I know abit about the term..."Unexpected Loads". Here in New England...the Electrical Utilities Companies have been using such a term as an excuse for the ever greater and more frequent...Black and Brown Outs that are starting to plague the area mostly due to an inefficient Grid.

Because of our multiple family owned companies...I and another family member have been working with the Electric and Natural Gas suppliers up here as we are making our companies offices and other buildings efficient by taking advantage of State and Federally backed Energy Programs to convert some buildings heating systems to Natural Gas at over 97% efficiency as well as change Electricl Lighting to the more efficient systems.

As we are involved in our States politics and Leadership as this is a MUST for any Company or group of now days...I was ABSOLUTELY SHOCKED to learn that because it will cost between $12 and $14 BILLION to do a proper upgade of the current Electrical Grid in the North East...the Electrical Companies have developed their own State and Federal licensed and approved Consultant Firms specific to go to various businesses and do an Energy Audit then present a design and cost analisis for Businesses to see and if the business agrees...this Consultant Firm will send a Crew to convert the old Electrical Systems to Natural Gas.

What is SHOCKING is that the Electrical Utilities Company has run the numbers and deceided that it is CHEAPER TO LOOSE CUSTOMERS BY CONVERTING THEM TO NATURAL GAS....than to have to pay the Billions required...even though some of this money will come from the State and Federal Government...to UPGRADE THE GRID!

What REALLY burns my ass is that the people of the North East are PAYING the Electrical Utilities Company to cover the cost of the Consulting Firm...the Marketing Firms charged with getting the word out about Electric to Gas conversion...and the people are paying for the Incentive Pan to do these Conversions.

I have had our buildings and offices all converted as well as seen IMMENSE savings where we changed Oil to Gas....55% Savings...and Old Electrical Lighting....over 300% Savings as in one Office Building our monthly electric bill for lighting went from around $1400.00 a month to about $500.00 a month. I will be very interested to see how the new Central Air Systems run and cost us.

So the wording..."Unexpected Loads"...has been used up here in a way to deflect the real reasons for Black and Brown Outs...that reason being an Old and Inefficient Grid...and place the blame on the people specific to an "Increase in Usage" due to a larger population...an evolving steady increase in Electricity Demand due to changes in Personal Electronics specific to Entertainment and Leisure...and a Yearly Average Increase in Spring, Summer and Fall High Temperatures....which the Electrical Company NEVER mentions the words...Global Warming...but instead blames...a Greater number of Long Duration Heat Waves as well as a 900% increase in the number of days with temps. in excess of 95 degrees.

We are going to be hearing the term..."Unexpected Loads" more often as Airconditioner Use will continue to grow in number and duration as well as Electrical Demand per unit as they struggle to cool 95 degree plus days.

Also...Home Electronics in general have been by design...and this is ON PURPOSE as there is a connection to design of Electronics an various Parties who will benefit from the specifics of that design...to have built in Capacitors of greater capability than is required thereby drawing a greater amount of electricity. Just about everything from DVD, CD, Blueray, VCR, Dishwashers, Toasters, Ovens, Alarm Clocks, Thermostats, TV's, Computers...YOU NAME IT...have capacitors in them to hold charge for programing, clocks, timers...etc.

Split Infinity

 

There are time of year they strip down power stations for maintenance, and unexpected weather hits (cold front in April, hot spell in January, both happen here). I would call that unexpected, and they are not able to bring the plant up for a week or so.

 

Thank you. That was very reasonable.

I would like to hold out a ray of hope. Our government has been demanding increased efficiency from heating and cooling machines for about 20 years, and it is working. Forty years ago, the only specification for an air conditioner was that it makes "X" amount of BTU's per hour. The efficiency numbers were between 8.3 and 9.8 BTU's per watt hour, and nobody gave it a thought. Right now the legal minimum in Florida is 13 and there are good machines better than that. There is always a "gouging" period of one to two years after each legislative change is made, but the prices do settle back to reasonable in about two years. I have an efficiency 14 machine on my house and it still has the dependable simplicity of the 40 year old machines. Eleven years, no repairs. I should know, Air Conditioning is my day job.

Presently available are several multi-speed models that can do maybe 18 or 19 BTU's per watt hour, but they are plagued with failures of "high-tech" methods like, variable speed, DC motors that cost $500 and MCU circuit boards that cost $175, wholesale, here in the lightning capital of the U.S. My air conditioner has paid for itself at least twice (by removing cost from my electric bill) but I constantly battle customers that want a, "hugga-hugga heat pump", and pay me upwards of $700 about every 7 years to replace parts that simple air conditioners don't even have.

I say ground source heat pumps are the best thing going right now. Efficiencies can be higher than 25 BTU's per watt hour, for BOTH heating and cooling, some designers keep the number of high tech components to a minimum, the buried heat exchangers seem to be dependable, and the rustable components are inside the house. The drawbacks include a few thousand up-front dollars to bury pipes and a water pumping system that absolutely must obey Murphy's law of hydronics: Anything that carries water will turn to <snip> eventually. Still, that kind of efficiency can pay for replacing a water pump every 10 to 15 years.

The biggest problem has been expecting a person to own the same house long enough to see a payback on three thousand dollars worth of buried plastic pipes or expecting a real estate resale value that pays for the investment.

ps, I recently did the math on a stand-alone Freon powered water heater. Still not a bargain at $1150 purchase price. The good news? This is price gouging and it will settle down. Just look at the price for a 12,000 BTU window air conditioner, less than $300 retail. A Freon powered water heater uses the water for the condensing half of the Freon circuit. In effect, it's only half of a $300 air conditioner attached to a water tank that would cost $250 to $350 if it had the heater elements and thermostats in it. Show me a 40 gallon Freon water heater for $400 and I'll sell a dozen in a week because I can calculate a payback period.

 

The good thing about solar panels is that when or if they break they don't spill sunbeams into our oceans.

You might want to look into the kind of nasty chemicals are involved in the manufacturing of solar panels. But I know they are always trying to address this and it might actually become pretty benign at some point.

Though, I did hear a report saying that if less than 1% of the Sahara were covered in solar panels, it could provide power for the entire planet.

Let's consider this report that you heard.

Few people realize how big the Sahara desert is. At 9.4 million square kilometers, making it is larger than all of China (9.1 million square miles), almost as large as the United States (9.9 million square kilometers) and considerably larger than Australia (7.7 million square kilometers). The 1% of the land area that would get covered, 94 thousand square kilometers, would be well over 1/3 of the entire land area of the United Kingdom (242 thousand square kilometers) and larger than the state of Indiana or the country of Portugal (about 92 thouand square kilometers).

Now, people are picturing a nice, quiet desert with this pretty array of solar panels somewhere. They don't picture the kind of violent sandstorms that are going to continually be battering these panels into pieces and sandblasting the surfaces, literally. Almost anything you do to combat this is going to reduce the efficiency of the panels or drastically increase the cost of the project, though I can envision a few possibilities that might be worth consideration. Then there's the fact that the topology of the Sahara is constantly shifting. You panel arrays are constantly threatened with burial by the shifting sand dunes. Now, since you are only trying to cover 1% of someone else's property, it is reasonably likely that you will be able to find some ground that is well shielded from these factors. Of course, that ground is probably already being used precisely for this reason, but surely the needs of the planet outweigh the needs of the people already living there.

 

There are time of year they strip down power stations for maintenance, and unexpected weather hits (cold front in April, hot spell in January, both happen here). I would call that unexpected, and they are not able to bring the plant up for a week or so.

Bill...just about every possibility and scenario that could happen must be taken into account, planned for...and a contingency plan must be adopted to handle such possible events specific to the interuption of electrical supply for regions.

This planning is overseen and even dictated to a point by the NSA and Homeland Security nowdays. Still...given the relation of Utility Companies to Political Donations...such planning is nowhere near as comprehensive as it should be. Nor have adequate preperations been made to handle all service interuption possibilities as the plans cover events of High Probability.

Maintenance cannot be considered...nor is it in anyway...unexpected as far as Utility Companies are concerned. In reality large Corps and their subsidiaries in the Energy Supply Business...have EXTENSIVE studies that detail possible events...the possibility of events...and extensive detailed knowledge of trends that could interupt service.

By LAW...these Companies must be ready to use alternative methods and sources to provide their costomers.

Split Infinity

 

I really do hope the rulers of the world wake up and recognize the value of "clean" energy as insignificant as it may seem. There are electrical things out there in our world that could have solar add on functionality, street lights, revolving doors, etc. Not to mention solar panels on roofs. All it takes is a little investment and some governmental push to supports these energy forms.

 

So, after the government "pushes" support for something you like, are you going to be as eager to accept the things that government "pushes" support for that you don't? You can't have the former without accepting the latter. Think about it.

 

Bill...just about every possibility and scenario that could happen must be taken into account, planned for...and a contingency plan must be adopted to handle such possible events specific to the interuption of electrical supply for regions.

This planning is overseen and even dictated to a point by the NSA and Homeland Security nowdays. Still...given the relation of Utility Companies to Political Donations...such planning is nowhere near as comprehensive as it should be. Nor have adequate preperations been made to handle all service interuption possibilities as the plans cover events of High Probability.

Maintenance cannot be considered...nor is it in anyway...unexpected as far as Utility Companies are concerned. In reality large Corps and their subsidiaries in the Energy Supply Business...have EXTENSIVE studies that detail possible events...the possibility of events...and extensive detailed knowledge of trends that could interupt service.

By LAW...these Companies must be ready to use alternative methods and sources to provide their costomers.

Split Infinity

A nice theory, tell that to the folks in West. Heads will role, but it doesn't really help the town now. Fact is, stuff happens. We also have a problem with NIMBY and power plants, which doesn't help. Life is rarely as simple as you are stating.

Playing a fault game rarely gets er done. Better to come up with local solutions that you can actually contribute to. Our population is exploding, the infrastructure is having trouble keeping up. Expect it to get worse, not better.

It is why I track alternate energy technologies. I post the links even though 90%+ are bogus, one or two will work out. Posting links is a good way to get it from a reputable source, people can call it as they see it, but it is not personal.

 

I spent the last few days checking out some wind and solar installations.

This house we stay at was constructed with insulated concrete forms (ICF) and had geothermal installation and solar panels.

 

And that was what I am talking about.

 

http://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/vis/a010000/a011200/a011255/

Some nice pictures of Mr. Solar.

 

ICF is the way to go. Too bad I can't demolish my house and rebuild it that way.

 

A nice theory, tell that to the folks in West. Heads will role, but it doesn't really help the town now. Fact is, stuff happens. We also have a problem with NIMBY and power plants, which doesn't help. Life is rarely as simple as you are stating.

Playing a fault game rarely gets er done. Better to come up with local solutions that you can actually contribute to. Our population is exploding, the infrastructure is having trouble keeping up. Expect it to get worse, not better.

It is why I track alternate energy technologies. I post the links even though 90%+ are bogus, one or two will work out. Posting links is a good way to get it from a reputable source, people can call it as they see it, but it is not personal.

Sorry...I missed your reply on this one.

I agree with what you are saying above here. That is why I stated in my post that due to politics...even though BY LAW...extensive studies must and have been done to cover just about every possibility...just because Congress forced the Utilities Corps. to do these studies doesn't mean they passed a law for the Corps. to be READY to handle such events.

Our grid is archaic and when one looks and thinks about how patchwork the grid is...especially in the United States...a country that Europe, Russia and China are now calling a HYPER POWER...as they have stated that Super Power just doesn't cut it anymore due to the level of disparity...it makes me sick.

What really frosts my ass is I know and have seen with my own eyes the capabilities of both the Corporations and the U.S. Government energy developments and it is a TRAVESTY that this country has a Grid this out of date.

Right now we are spending BILLIONS of Dollars just to defend our grid from Cyber Attacks and there are plans and designs for a new grid that would conserve ENORMOUS amounts of energy that we loose by Bleed Off in the current grid as well as be designed in a manner that makes it impossible for the whole grid to go down due to a Cyber Attack.

So far the reasons no country has attempted to collapse the entire Grid...and there have been small attempts but nothing beyond just testing the waters....is that our Cyber Defense and Detection would find out what country was involved and such an act is a declaration of WAR.

But now days we have terrorist orgs and other elements that could care less about the chaos that would ensue if the grid did collapse.

It is funny to me that I know that a freekin' Bottle Rocket couldn't be launched anywhere in the world without us knowing about it...we can detect and track the movement and location of every sub and ship on or in the oceans of the world using Satellite Magnetometers and other exotic tech. yet we leave ourselves so vulnerable by having an old grid?

Split Infinity

 

Hello,

Sharp is showing some new developments:

http://phys.org/news/2013-06-solar-cell-world-highest-conversion.html

Bertus

 

Thanks for the link.

They are using a lens based concentrator system, that requires lens (size and cost), and a large heatsink for the silicon too (more cost and complexity).

I still don't think that will be the way of the future even though they have achieved higher efficiency in the silicon cell itself.

Cells are already efficient enough, they are just too expensive. The one "efficiency" that matters will be cost per watt output (or cost per sq metre installed, assuming a typical efficiency).

Even with the lowish efficiencies we have now if you covered your entire roof area you would have a significant energy surplus. And the only reason you don't cover your entire roof? Cost.