Another interesting possibility is nickle-iron batteries. Very old technology. Seems that they were invented somewhere in the 1890's, and were made for many years. GE made quite a few of them in various sizes. They weren't as efficient as lead-acid batteries, and didn't hold a charge well; in a month they'd lose about 50% of their charge. However, they had an exceptional lifespan; they could last 30-40 years and more.

One of the big drawbacks of these batteries was the large amounts of hydrogen and oxygen they emitted, particularly if their temperature exceeded 115°F. However, since in this case that's the "holy grail" that's being sought ... it could be worth re-investigating.

 

Interesting article on Popular Mechanics' site:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4276846.html

 

"Bob Boyce" is the name of the model boat racer who started the PWM craze.

Here's a quote from him:

I delved into hydrogen research where I was building small electrolyzer type units that used distilled water mixed with an electrolyte and I would resonate the plates for optimal conversion efficiency. I discovered that with the right frequencies, I was able to generate monoatomic hydrogen and oxygen, which when recombined, produces about 4 times the energy output of normal diatomic hydrogen and oxygen molecules since the process of combustion does not have to break apart the molecules first before recombining into water vapor. Diatomic hydrogen requires about 4% to air to produce the same power as gasoline, while monoatomic requires slightly less than 1% to air for the same power. The only drawback was storage at pressure causes the monoatoms to start joining into diatomic pairs, and the mixture weakens, so it must be produced on-demand and consumed right away.

Also:

The unit does not use "normal brute force" electrolysis when operating in high efficiency mode. It relies mainly on a chemical reaction that takes place between the electrolyte used and the metal plates, which is maintained by electrical energy applied and stimulated into higher efficiency by the application of multiple harmonic resonances which help to "tickle" the molecules apart. I coined the term "electrochemical reaction" to describe the process and I called the chamber an "electrochemical reactor". I used multiple cells in series to lower the voltage per cell and limit the current flow in order to reduce water vapor production. It relies on the large surface area of the total number of cells to get the required volume of fuel vapor output. In my first prototype of this design, I used a custom built controller/driver that gave me a lot of adjustability so I could experiment with multiple frequencies, voltages, and waveforms individually and compare performance. The result was a pattern of 3 interwoven square waves rich in harmonics that produced optimal efficiency. When I had the basics figured out I realized that I could just replace the custom controller/driver unit with a modified inverter much easier than building one from scratch

I then experimented using a 300 watt pseudo-sine wave inverter that had been modified so the base frequency could be adjusted between 700 and 800 hz. The stepped sine wave output was fed through a bridge rectifier which turned each stepped sine wave into two positive stepped half waves. Each of these half waves had 8 steps, so a single cycle was turned into 16 steps. The resulting output, while not consisting of intermixed square waves, was still rich in harmonics, and I found it much easier to dial in resonance than trying to tune 3 separate frequencies. The frequency range can change depending on the number of steps in the pseudo-sine wave of the inverter you choose since not all inverters are created equal. The desired effect is caused by the multiple harmonic resonances in the inverter output at higher frequencies. You will know when you hit resonance by the dramatic increase in vapor output. The frequency does vary a bit as to what electrolyte is used, the specific gravity of the electrolyte solution (how much electrolyte to water is in the mix), electrolyte temperature, water purity, etc. Keep in mind that my electrochemical reactor tank was large enough to hold 61 plates of 316 grade stainless that were 6" X 6" each, spaced 1/8" apart, to create 60 cells in series, with the 130 VDC power from the inverter, through the bridge rectifier, applied to the end plates only. That gave 4,320 square inches of surface area, plenty of surface area to produce enough fuel for an automotive engine. The best electrolyte I found for efficiency was potassium hydroxide, and the electrolyte level must be kept below the tops of the plates to prevent any current from bypassing the plates and creating excess water vapor through heating. Distilled water was used to prevent contamination of the electrolyte which would result in reduced performance and efficiency.

 

Yes, Bob Boyce.

Happened to find some rather complete instructions on how he built his thing, in this PDF article:
http://pesn.com/2007/09/29/9500450_BobBoyce_Electrolizer_Plans/d9.pdf
47 pages; contains several different styles plus Bob Boyce's design.

Page 20 gets into the frequencies he used; 42.8kHz, 21.4kHz, and 10.7kHz - but that is dependent upon the size of the plates used and the construction of the box. Some of it seems pure hogwash, like "magnetically aligning" the 316L plates. However, the dimension specifications seem reasonable.

 

Thanks for the suggestions. I apologize for not giving more details as to what I had already done thus far. I had hoped based on the circuit I referred to and the information that was provided on that link, others here might have already seen it and experienced similar results. Sometimes a fresh analysis to a problem can bring a totally different approach to a problem than the direction I had tried. The suggestions that were given I had tried already yet still failed to resolve the problems I have with a clean output from pin 8. My first modification to begin with was to remove the 7810 and put a 5 watt 12v zener to ground after a 33 ohm 2 watt resister. Than added a simple totem pole mosfet driver to give the Mosfet gate a better chance This is often missing from tooo many circuits being sold and suggested by others designing PWM. I have changed R13 to10K as suggested Thanks Sarg and others for your input. Still had problems with signal on pin 10. The nature of the HHO cell and oscillations created between UIC the cell and U1d were difficult find a solution for. Have order a lm2902 and a TL084 to see what that might do, still looking for other IC possible replacements, all of these seem have been around for many years. I did find by adding a much larger electrolytic 200uf connected between ground and the center tap of VR1 helped, now have a cleaner sawtooth pulse of 30 Hz on pin 10, with 1.1Khz on pin 9, pin 8 much steadier voltage to base of totem pole, collector at 13 volt tide in before zener, emitters out put to Mosfet gate 11 volt pulse of 1.1khz. R11 seems to make no difference in or out of circuit
As for more data to improve mileage, there was very little good data even 10 years ago. A lot of scams but now if you are truly interested a great deal more has been done by many including several university studies doing research and I might add making headway, and available on the internet.


The mixture is to help improve combustion of even the newest of engines. Energy is being wasted having to create compression to help vaporize and ignite fuel and more energy wasted as heat and than still more to prevent thermal runaway (radiator cooling fans). Decreasing these inefficiencies by using less energy than already is being wasted, equals improvement. If you live in the Atlanta area, my lab is always open to anyone that would like to see proof for themselves.
After more than 25+ years of research I can understand the position many now have when it comes to Hydrogen unit. I read many years ago Prof. Kanarev material and that of others. Only after many failures trying to achieve better results was I able to understand why his approach and that of others had limits. Countless years of trying to understand the Hydrogen-Oxygen molecule and having to unlearn bad concepts many electronic educators still continue to teach makes it difficult for so many others to understand. One good example is the term many still insist on using current flow. Many today still find it difficult to fully understand simple principles, never having the correct concept to begin with. Many educators and publishers refuse to except change. Common nature to be embarrassed or feel attacked and a reputation to uphold prevails.
As some have pointed out, there are endless variables to consider. I recommend anyone new to this research first start with a brut force unit. I have sense moved ahead to a more efficient system utilizing UV photon energy with combined mixture of frequencies to decrease current and increase production of Monatomic Hydrogen and ozone injection for better regulation.
Most any changes made to a hydrogen cell have a delayed reaction once started removing power completely are slow to shutdown, When looking for the best settings it becomes extremely easy to miss, a very slow process for the cell to transition from a bad setting to a good state yet once found the outcome are slow clime up and slow decline. This is one explanation why so many have fail to find the correct combination of settings. I could write volumes of what hard work and a great deal of expense has taught me over the years yet never have the time, I’m content doing my lab work as long as I’m still able, always searching for improvements to this fascinating alternative energy method.
The circuit above I believe is simple enough for most to build and will help them have more control over their brut force type unit. Keeping the current set also makes it easier to find the sweet spot everyone struggles with when fine tuning.
As fore other engine changes when adding Hydrogen and Oxygen into the air intake of a vehicle, there are other simple control circuits that can be added to the Oxygen sensor that will help improve injector duration and engine timing issues.
I respectfully disagree with the statement

"In automobiles, it takes more energy to drive the alternator than the power it produces. These combined losses mean that no matter how much Brown's gas gets produced by some under hood gadget, it will never be able to increase the mileage of that car. And there is just not that much extra capacity in an alternator to spare for electrolysis."
Sorry for ranting. It saddens me to still find intelligent people telling me what I’ve done can’t be done.
Ask yourself, Are there people that have billions of dollars of profits they could loss if others know longer need what they have? Would they spend even 1% of those profits to stop or slow down progress to save billions of lost future profits. Just a thought. We can sit back on the couch and complain about the high prices to heat are homes and drive are vehicles or put are heads together and solve the problem.
Please, don’t build any unit without first reading as much as you can about safety. When assembled correctly its as safe as gasoline if not more so. You can expect 30 to 40 percent improvement in fuel economy. Anything higher I personally don’t recommend. Most engines are not designed to withstand lower levels of fuel. Engines that are made to run on just hydrogen are made with different alloys compared to the average gas or diesel vehicle on the road today. Hydrogen mix without some fuel can lead to metal fatigue and becomes brittle. Valves need it for lubrication. The fuel actually helps dilute the mix of Hydrogen Oxygen slowing the flash rate down to prevent damage yet more power than gasoline alone.
There are many different levels of Hydrogen. Monatomic Hydrogen has been recorded to have a flash rate speed of mock 4 were as gasoline doesn’t even com close. The supersonic wave front energy is often overlooked when many try to calculate the energy potential with outdated formulas.
To help stop the Scam artist who continue to sell inefficient difficult to build and unsafe designs I would be more than happy to E-mail plains Free of charge to anyone interested. if so e-mail asking for TOHHO plains in the heading or it will go to spam folder All I ask in return is you pass the info on to other Free of charge.

Take Care Oldtech2

 

Why not post it here? That is one of the goals of this site.

Coming soon, we'll have a cook book of such designs for people to access.

 

I have sense moved ahead to a more efficient system utilizing UV photon energy with combined mixture of frequencies to decrease current and increase production of Monatomic Hydrogen and ozone injection for better regulation.

I am interested in your method of verifying monoatomic hydrogen versus diatomic hydrogen. Can you share your method here?

To help stop the Scam artist who continue to sell inefficient difficult to build and unsafe designs I would be more than happy to E-mail plains Free of charge to anyone interested. if so e-mail asking for TOHHO plains in the heading or it will go to spam folder All I ask in return is you pass the info on to other Free of charge.

Rather than phishing for e-mail addresses, why not post your free plans here on AAC? We are the largest electronics education forum on the web. We have a section set up especially for completed projects.

 

Therein lies the problem we have with accepting and adopting this device (whatever it may be). Plans are distributed semi-secretly, results are never published, claims are made that sound frankly magical to persons versed in electronics and physics.

Gasoline is a hydrocarbon, by the way. The hydrogen atoms present in the gasoline molecules are the fuel when it combusts with atmospheric oxygen. The carbon atoms are just along for the ride, although they damp the process by combining with loose oxygen atoms to form CO and CO2. So adding gaseous hydrogen and oxygen to the input stream of an IC engine (a chemical reactor) does not alter the basic process of combining O2 and H2 to form water with an incidental evolution of heat.

Until some apparatus is investigated by several persons and found to do what is claimed - namely an enhanced electrolysis of water - then the whole topic has to stay with other perpetual motion devices. The claim of "too busy to publish" due to ongoing experimentation fails to impress an scientific researcher. Failing to publish results means that nobody is examining your work (and finding any errors it may contain).

I'm sorry that we are still mentally bound by such obsolete concepts as "current flow", but we're also the people who can find out and establish that your claims are valid or not.

The claim that the reaction is extremely sensitive to some applied frequency, but very slow to "adjust" for the enhanced rate of electrolysis is pretty close to absolute hogwash. But it is a great way to "disprove" any objective results that can't find the magic frequency - "they just weren't patient enough".

Let me leave you with this observation - "Men of vision often have poor eyesight.", author unknown.

 

I'm still having trouble with the term monoatomic hydrogen and oxygen. Frankly I don't believe they exist, having never read any reputable source on the subject.

Science in concervitive in the sense we need to be able to build (ie duplicate) whatever is claimed. It makes a lot more sense to publish on an open website such as this one than to depend on email. Goes back to verification. If someone builds the experiment and it doesn't work, they will get help. At this point I suspect several people are willing to build to spec, but the specs are never the same.

One nice thing about science and electronics, we have the language down to duplicate anything pretty much exactly if it is published.

 

Yeah Bill, I'm taking everything I read on the subject with a pound of salt.

But, that PDF I posted a link to earlier (post #124) did have commonalities with documentation on nickel/iron batteries that had been basically common knowledge for the last hundred years - such as the voltage for "brute force" electrolysis method.

Seems like many of the "brute force" experimenters haven't realized that after a certain voltage is exceeded, they're not producing more gas; they're simply heating up the solution more rapidly - which would also happen with the nickel/iron batteries.

Now as far as Bob Boyce's circuit - well, I haven't spent any time analyzing it except for a one-time read through. However, it actually seems to be fairly complete. There really aren't any "mystery boxes" to be filled in; except some of the items (like the box/cell itself) have rather lofty price tags if one wishes to purchase a preassembled version.

I can see no reason offhand why a 'scaled down" version of it could not be built, however that would throw the frequency/frequencies off quite a bit. Seems to me that Boyce's cell and toroidal transformer are actually an RLC tank circuit. When you hit resonance, current consumption would decrease significantly for the amount of gas produced.

Not much chance for the circuit that Oldtech2 posted to hit resonance, as that PWM circuit has no real inductive component; besides, the basic circuit itself is extremely limited in frequency range.

However, in the Boyce narrative, there was a significant reference to Taiwanese NE556 not conforming to the original 555 specifications, other similar problems discovered/resolved. There's a fairly extensive section on testing the Boyce board before actually connecting it up, which is a refreshing change.

The details of winding the toroidal transformer are actually quite good. Using the teflon-insulated silver-plated copper wire might be a bit of overkill and increase the difficulty significantly, but it's sure to be more efficient than using standard copper magnet wire, and the insulation will be much more likely to resist degradation under heat. I don't buy the part of the fiberglass tape causing the secondary to reverse polarity though.

 

Anybody who wants a length of Tefzel wire in 26 ga need only ask. I have about 1200' in a drawer. It's old wire wrap wire. The tefzel is not pure teflon, but it's pretty close. At least the wire is silver plated. You want magnet wire, I have 600' of 20 ga left over from a past project.

Toroidal transformers are a stock item these days. I just bought two for a project. Cores are readily available. Fibreglas tape inducing polarity reversal is pure hogwash. In case your attempt fails after slavishly following the instructions, it becomes: "Oh, you didn't use the tape correctly/wound it incorrectly/got it wrong and reversed the polarity".

It's going to be lots easier to use a resistive mixer and op amp to combine the frequencies, and a power Darlington or FET to push current through the cell/s.

The resonance effect has to be with the water molecules, as it could hardly affect electrolysis otherwise.

PWM is PWM, however exotic the IC's used.

Be aware that there is always going to be one more item/condition that has to be met before the magical enhancement effect can be realized. Nevertheless, the unpublished research continues.

The sole reason I am willing to pursue this is to be able to present future true believers with hard evidence that what they propose is utter fiction. Guess I'll have to slog through that pdf sometime. Too bad a skim through shows up so many errors and falsities that it's hard to treat it with anything but contempt.

 

Series 300 stainless steel, including 316, are not magnetic at room temperature or higher: http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=5

 

I've had a chance to go through the article - http://pesn.com/2007/09/29/9500450_B...r_Plans/d9.pdf - and mentally throw up my hands. The number and quality of internal contradictions are hard to encompass.

Anyone tempted to duplicate one of these gadgets is in for a hard time with little hope of result.

In a later post, I will point out some of the more egregious errors - the ones that make it impossible to put one together that operates anything like the text suggests it should.

By the way, you absolutely have to get the article at this site - www.rexresearch.com/meyerhy/meyerhy.htm. It's the third excerpt, "Birth of New Technology: The Hydrogen fracturing Process & Related Water Fuel Cell Technology" that is an absolute hoot. It seems that the Fracturing Process manages to separate individual atoms of gasses into component parts, thus liberating a "tremendous amount of thermal explosive energy". What's handy about this is that it does not affect the nucleii of the atoms thus fractured, and so "the Hydrogen Fracturing Process is environmentally safe".

Whata relief! Lewis Caroll would have loved these (supply your own perjoritive here).

 

By the way, you absolutely have to get the article at this site

I'm sorry, my friend... I got as far as "Stanley Meyer" and had to go puke. At least P.T.Barnum and Madman Muntz had some style. I'll check the suggested article when I get my appetite back.

 

It's on a par with George Adamski's "Inside the Flying Saucers" from back in 1950 something. They came from Saturn, but liked standard temps and pressure, as well as oxy-nitro mix. Damn decent behavior from a bunch of cruddy aliens from a high-gravity planet with a methane atmosphere. Spoke English, too.

Need we mention that, in order to obtain a patent, it is only necessary to satisfy some basic criteria involving uniqueness. No actual working device need be demonstrated. It's just paperwork and a fee. Having a patent is almost as significant as having a cold.

 

I've been reading what's been posted in this thread for the past couple of days. I have to say I just love reading these conversations but I have one question, is there anything left of the horse?

I remember thinking entirely way too much in high school and I kept telling myself I could find some way to connect a DC motor to a DC generator and they would power each other. The more I thought about it the more I realized "oh my gosh, I might make so much power with the generator that it will spin the motor up to infinity!" So then I had to figure out some way to regulate this massive amount of ever increasing power I was going to generate. I had found the Holy Grail, I was going to be rich!. It kept going like this for a while and then I realized, wait a minute, the motor is going to USE the electricity that is being produced by the generator and due to friction it would slowly wind DOWN instead of UP.

I think this was the beginning of my vague understanding of physics. I have another question, why don't these free energy guys get it?

 

you are correct sir that is bob boyce. google bob boyce d9 pdf. the d9, well there are two pdf files that are out, one has a little different way to condition plates, have the boyce 3 frequency mixer and the toroidal choke can or was being sold on ebay for this project. of course the 101 plate cell has the be built for these magic frequencies to work, i forget what they were. probably 42.8 k and the lower harmonics of this if i remeber right. i will reread the d9. i have a step voltage generator to make that has 3 frequencies in a step fashion. i too want not to be a lab rat but the guy who sez, Watson, come here. i spilled....

 

Once again, somebody has something nebulous that will - any week now - actually produce vast volumes of hydrolyzed gas with almost no energy input. Except that pieces are always for sale, but no results are publicly demonstrated.

This is a game for losers. Unless someone actually comes up and shows a device that works at any time and anywhere, it's all a scam.

 

Mine works makes enought gas to run a 1988 Jeep cj 6 cil 4.2L engine to over 100 MPH on tap water. Took 4 months to build. I'm using tap water (NO ADDITIVES) I'd be glad to sell for the right price and demonstrate for those with cash in hand. No Freebes glad to explain. however Based on Stan Meyer earlyier Patients With improvments. Uses LP Gas carb and regulator has 10 gal water supply Plus a seperate water injection ( to control Temp of combustion and detonation) I never measured gas production but its enought to run the engine. Back seat removed to house apparatus Cell housing is clear plastic to be able to see gas production. Amp meter to maintain resonance when I change water type. ( meter must be peeked ) Lo amps shows resonance. All componants are in sight.

 

I for got to mention the gas is HHO