I am no electrician, but to use the bare Earth or Ground as a Neutral is plain daft. Why would you need to take this kind of shortcut? Here in South Africa we for instance have something called Surfix, or twin and earth. In 1962, my father rebuilt our house and used an electrician. It was explained the bare earth was not needed since the mild steel conduit was used as that. It was very well interconnected as well and into the distribution board going to the mains supply in the street. When things changed over to plastic conduit, the bare earth wire was introduced with the same requirements to replace the mild steel conduit.

Now GP AC house wiring uses Red Live, Black Neutral for common throughout and Bare Earth in Plastic conduit. Sometimes, for good identification, Yellow/Green is used for Earth. Plug in appliance leads are made up of Brown Live, Blue Neutral and Yellow/Green Earth. The latter I believe goes according to European standards. During electronic studies it was pointed out that the black neutral was effectively the SYSTEM earth as in chassis earth. The acting ground plane and even this is eventually tied into the AC system. To my mind then it explained the straight base line in the graphic representation of alternating current, whereas the sine wave would illustrate the live current itself.

In another recent post here

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/why-is-the-us-standard-60-hz/

it was pointed out that the Earth is installed with the express purpose of stabilizing the grid to float at 110/220 above real Earth and not at something like millions of volts. Tesla did it.

So again, why would you take the risk to a nasty barbeque?

Ground is ground/earth. Period. Put in the spikes. Run your line and install a proper Distribution Board in the pump house with Isolators and Earth Leakage switch gear. Behind circuit breakers install seperate circuit breakers for lights and plugs (mainly for motors) off the proper bus. Then install a step down transformer with a centre tap.

Yes, I understand this goes against the general spirit of AAC to let people find their own way, but being tolerant about it goes too far.

This is the reason for the codes being laid down. First off, understand what you are doing and take your won risks. The codes are the summation of collected wisdom. RTFM and do it like that.

 

That should read; "Behind isolators install separate circuit breakers . . . .

 

I also forgot the difference between the European system and that of the States. The 110VAC system there has Two live or hot wires. Wendy correctly stated the (third) centre tap to be the neutral. That is the reason for the US system to be very dangerous as you cannot distinguish which are the live wires if you do not know anything about it. The full 220 VAC transformer has only two leads at either end nominally, whereas the centre tap on the 110 VAC system can be confusing.

I also assumed the original question to presuppose the site already had 220VAC installed, inside the fence, at the site from where he wanted to run his line. If he wants to do this work on the utility pole outside the fence, well . . .

 

A little surprising to see comments being made by those familiar with 50Hz systems from around the world. The OP is/was in North America, almost certainly the USA, and dealing with wiring and systems built to comply with some version of NFPA70, which changes every 3 years (a very politicized process, of purely commercial value).

While I carry the licenses, credentials and experience to perform the work, I'd rather see the guy do whatever he wants with his own hands, but do it safely and finish with a safe installation. Seems like what he's looking for.

 

Fully agree with your last paragraph. And yet electricity is just that. If you disrespect it, it will tell you in no uncertain terms. What perplexes me is that the US system has now brakes so to speak. I am a handyman with certificates to install electric fences and gate motors/intercoms. We may install theses systems, but a qualified electrician has to sign off on all power installations. However; under the law, anyhow, I am still liable for anyone's possible death through one of my installations. Frankly, I do not have any taste for issues around murder one.

The case above where the dog had some unpleasant run in with a live wall refers. I've had instances where I wore thick rubber soled boots on a bone dry concrete floor in a company's cellar. The appropriate circuit breakers were switched off, but when I touched the insulation around the black neutral wire, the earth leakage circuit breaker tripped. Frightened, I repeat this as a test. Same thing. Thrice. I notified them to have a qualified electrician sort this out.

I was taught to safe guard the casings, boxes and conduits of the system with the earth wire. It also serves to control the system by termination of the power supply should there be some internal errors. I fail to understand how interconnecting the system neutral to the earth renders a system with full safety. Maybe the difference between these systems is the reason why so many non-US guys pitched in. Puzzlement.

I freely admit my posts may be full of technical errors, but thank you, I understand the US system better now and fear it more.

 

I fail to understand how interconnecting the system neutral to the earth renders a system with full safety. Maybe the difference between these systems is the reason why so many non-US guys pitched in. Puzzlement.
I freely admit my posts may be full of technical errors, but thank you, I understand the US system better now and fear it more.

You do not appear to fully understand the theory behind grounding, particularly the N.A. residential method, If you want to understand a little better I suggest you obtain a copy of Soares Book On Grounding by Eustace Soares, published by the International Association of Electrical Inspectors and is used as a reference by many international ruling bodies.
I have worked in the electrical industry in both UK and N.A. and both use a very similar principle of grounding, just that UK has 1ph with star grounded neutral and N.A. has a C.T. transformer neutral.
Max.

"Early developers of electrical systems theorized that the earth was an electrically neutral body, i.e. an equal number of negative and positive charges are distributed throughout the earth at any given time. Being electrically neutral, earth is considered to be at zero potential and establishes a convenient reference frame for voltage measurements. Noting that voltmeters read only the difference in potential between two points, absolute measurements can be made by using earth as a reference.
A true earth ground, as defined by the National Electrical Code, physically consists of a conductive pipe or rod driven into the earth to a minimum depth of 8 feet."

 

Thank you Max, I will definitely try to get Soares' book. I will grant you all the considered theories, but I beg to differ on Earth being neutral all over. That being the case, how does one explain the death by electrocution of barefoot boys in thunderstorms trying to get through barbed wire fencing to get home? No lightning present locally. Must be a difference in potential with the body being the short circuit.

Effectively I understand the purpose of grounding to be the shortest route between two points with the least resistance to equalize the potential difference, WITHOUT using a human being as that route.

 

It has been observed that as a thunder storm passes over Earth a corresponding opposite charge is traveling directly under it in the Earth following the passage of the storm.
The atmosphere provides the electrical insulation, or barrier, that prevents free equalization between charged regions of opposite polarity.
This is overcome by "lightning", a complex process referred to as the lightning "flash".
I would assume the barbed wire had to become charged at some point, possibly distant to their location? if they were electrocuted it could be assumed there was no one to witness what actually happened?
Max.

 

Thanks again, Max. You prompted me to look up http://www.surgetek.co.za/. They sell Dehn surge arrestors.

I also found http://www.dehn-usa.com/en-us. Dehn is a German Company.

SurgeTek is the place where I got my education in safe guarding gate motors and other electronics.

The attached file contains what was to me a real wake up call.

On the SurgeTek site click Useful Info under the More tab to find a whole pageful of PDF's.

Very interesting reading indeed.

 

OT: (My first wife was born in Jo'burg)
Max.

 

It has been observed that as a thunder storm passes over Earth a corresponding opposite charge is traveling directly under it in the Earth following the passage of the storm.
The atmosphere provides the electrical insulation, or barrier, that prevents free equalization between charged regions of opposite polarity.
This is overcome by "lightning", a complex process referred to as the lightning "flash".
I would assume the barbed wire had to become charged at some point, possibly distant to their location? if they were electrocuted it could be assumed there was no one to witness what actually happened?
Max.]

No matter the witnesses. Between the your charged barbed wire and what else did they close the circuit? Does it matter whether your wire of whatever kind is charged by lightning or by power from a utility? See my following post on SurgeTek.

23:30. Talk to you in the morning.

 

Last seen on 7 Feb. Long gone.

 

Last seen on 7 Feb. Long gone.

WHO! my ex-wife?
Max.

 

WHO! my ex-wife?
Max.

No, the Thread Starter.....Long gone.

 

but when I touched the insulation around the black neutral wire, the earth leakage circuit breaker tripped.

That must be a color coding scheme belonging to your region being here in the US in a AC power system the black lead is a live power line not a neutral line.


Now for those making a fuss over what is or is not the correct NEC code on using the third line as a common Vs dedicated earth return here you go.
---------------------
"
Can I use the grounded conductor run with the feeder to a separate building as the ground-fault return path?

Answer:

See 250.32(B). An equipment grounding conductor must be run with the supply conductors and be connected to the building disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s). Any installed grounded conductor shall not be connected to the equipment grounding conductor or to the grounding electrode(s). There are two exceptions to this requirement. Exception No. 1 recognizes installations made in compliance with previous editions of the NEC that permitted such connection. The grounded conductor run with the feeder to the building or structure shall be permitted to serve as the ground-fault return path if all of the following requirements continue to be met:

(1) An equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure.

(2) There are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved.

(3) Ground-fault protection of equipment has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder(s).



The second exception applies to a building supplied by a feeder from an outdoor transformer, where system bonding jumpers are installed in accordance with 250.30(A)(1), Exception No. 2. The feeder grounded circuit conductor at the building served shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductors, grounding electrode conductor, and the enclosure for the first disconnecting means."

---------------------------

So if the original installation was before the code change then yes the third formerly bare copper earth return lead can be used as a common return line and to meet the newer codes a separate dedicated earthing rod should be installed at the end point to serve as the new earth return point while being bonded to the common return line which in the OP's case the metal well casing would likely qualify as such a earthing point.

That works for me.

 

There you go! Thanks TcmTech that's what I was on about all the time. The colour codings will differ and the colours as such do not matter. The crucial point is that the installer identifies the characteristics or purpose of each specific line correctly under local laws and regulations or codes.

Les, yes, he is long gone, but at least I'm less of a danger to myself - and others.

Yes Max, you find some of the most beautiful women here.