Resonant PLL Circuit

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ccercone001

Joined Nov 29, 2023
10
HELP!!! so, the thing is that i have been trying to build a resonant high frecuency circuit to control a variable capacitor, this capacitor can support high voltage and high frecuency but its variable due to the electrolite it contains..

so I have been tryin to desing it and have come with a sample design but this is to much for me, im pretty newbie in Electronics and need some help.
i was trying to use a PLL and and high voltage MOSFET, yet cant adjust for hgh frecuency and voltage..

any help or at least guidance on where/what to do?
 

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Papabravo

Joined Feb 24, 2006
21,029
Your block diagram is a bit short on details and the underlying concepts seem to be of dubious value. Why do you imagine that a "resonant high frequency circuit" has the ability to control a variable capacitor? 5-10pf is a mostly insignificant adjustment range for what looks like some expensive hardware. It used to be done with moveable parallel plates, but I think that technology is out of favor now. It is also done with varactor diodes with a DC bias. Assuming you can get it to work what advantages will your method have?
 

Thread Starter

ccercone001

Joined Nov 29, 2023
10
Hi Thank you for replying… this is mostly on the research phase…
My development area is Physics and I’m not very good in electronics..
Most of my research is based on electrochemical energy accumulation… so basically I have a cell with an electrolyte that acts as a variable capacitor with a resistor in series, and the hypothesis is that resonant high-frequency produces induced high voltage in the cell… this will improve the energy efficiency in the chemical power accumulation.. ‍♂


Your block diagram is a bit short on details and the underlying concepts seem to be of dubious value. Why do you imagine that a "resonant high frequency circuit" has the ability to control a variable capacitor? 5-10pf is a mostly insignificant adjustment range for what looks like some expensive hardware. It used to be done with moveable parallel plates, but I think that technology is out of favor now. It is also done with varactor diodes with a DC bias. Assuming you can get it to work what advantages will your method have?
 

BobTPH

Joined Jun 5, 2013
8,686
so basically I have a cell with an electrolyte that acts as a variable capacitor with a resistor in series, and the hypothesis is that resonant high-frequency produces induced high voltage in the cell
I have no clue what any of this could mean.

By resonant high frequency, do you mean a frequency that excites a resonance in the cell? You can produce high frequencies with an RF signal generator.

Do you somehow think exciting that resonance will build up a DC voltage across the capacitor? Don’t see how that works.
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
17,885
Interesting but inaccurate. A resonant circuit contains both a capacitance and an inductance.
And the statement: " this capacitor can support high voltage and high frecuency" is meaningless and incorrect. In addition, basic physics will tell you that you can not get out more energy than you put in, which is what would be the case if the capacitor charged itself to even 1000 volts and could deliver 3 to 5 amps.
Certainly a capacitor coil circuit could be driven, at resonance, to achieve a high voltage. That is commonly called a Tesla Coil, and is certainly a real system. BUT the energy delivered is not as much as used to drive the system.

I have seen the circuit of a higher powered Tesla coil that was powered by 12 volts DC. It was not even slightly similar to the block diagram posted.
 

k1ng 1337

Joined Sep 11, 2020
915
Post #3 suggests TS may have a battery not a capacitor. He used the word cell and his description gives no indication he actually has a capacitor.

I suspect he has the concepts confused because they are similar in construction and is trying to obtain high power density from what is actually an electrochemical cell.
 

Thread Starter

ccercone001

Joined Nov 29, 2023
10
I have no clue what any of this could mean.

By resonant high frequency, do you mean a frequency that excites a resonance in the cell? You can produce high frequencies with an RF signal generator.

Do you somehow think exciting that resonance will build up a DC voltage across the capacitor? Don’t see how that works.
In my research, the hypothesis suggests that when the DC voltage “builds up” then it will dissociate the molecular bonds of the electrolyte, think of it like when you put too much voltage on a car battery it starts to bubble… so the idea is that when we have high voltage/high frequency we can dissolve the electrolyte..
This “accumulated energy” can then be used like gas (e.g. hydrogen production) or component cleanups, recycling, etc… again it’s part only of my research…
 

Papabravo

Joined Feb 24, 2006
21,029
Hi Thank you for replying… this is mostly on the research phase…
My development area is Physics and I’m not very good in electronics..
Most of my research is based on electrochemical energy accumulation… so basically I have a cell with an electrolyte that acts as a variable capacitor with a resistor in series, and the hypothesis is that resonant high-frequency produces induced high voltage in the cell… this will improve the energy efficiency in the chemical power accumulation.. ‍♂
We have a number of simulation tools that could be used to explore the concepts you are describing. The use of a PLL (Phase Locked Loop) is appropriate in systems where you have some type of VCO (Voltage Controlled Oscillator) that works at a high frequency, like hundreds to thousands of Megahertz and you want to synchronize it to a stable, temperature compensated, crystal oscillator (e.g. 10 MHz = WWV Standard Frequency). You do this by dividing down the output of the high frequency VCO and you synchronize it the lower frequency standard.

Acquiring (purchasing) a stable VCO at 1-5 MHz, can be done without the need for a PLL IMHO, at least for starters.

Working at high power levels is IMHO extremely dangerous for those who describe themselves as "not very good in electronics", so I urge the same degree of caution you would use for research on radioactive isotopes or super fluid Helium.
 

Thread Starter

ccercone001

Joined Nov 29, 2023
10
Interesting but inaccurate. A resonant circuit contains both a capacitance and an inductance.
And the statement: " this capacitor can support high voltage and high frecuency" is meaningless and incorrect. In addition, basic physics will tell you that you can not get out more energy than you put in, which is what would be the case if the capacitor charged itself to even 1000 volts and could deliver 3 to 5 amps.
Certainly a capacitor coil circuit could be driven, at resonance, to achieve a high voltage. That is commonly called a Tesla Coil, and is certainly a real system. BUT the energy delivered is not as much as used to drive the system.

I have seen the circuit of a higher powered Tesla coil that was powered by 12 volts DC. It was not even slightly similar to the block diagram posted.
Correct you are right… we have investigated and similar diagram is used like the Tesla coil but Tesla voltage dimension is useless.. the idea with our research is that the high voltage makes the chemical reactions to be more efficient.
the problem with the Tesla could is that it’s not controlled and it doesn’t have a feedback which this circuit would require.. (at least that’s my understanding)
 

Thread Starter

ccercone001

Joined Nov 29, 2023
10
Post #3 suggests TS may have a battery not a capacitor. He used the word cell and his description gives no indication he actually has a capacitor.

I suspect he has the concepts confused because they are similar in construction and is trying to obtain high power density from what is actually an electrochemical cell.
Correct, my mistake, actually the correct term as your suggestion is electrochemical cell… yet we have calculated that this cell acts as a variable capacitor with a resistor in series.. so we need to control the frecuency applied somehow..
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
17,885
In my research, the hypothesis suggests that when the DC voltage “builds up” then it will dissociate the molecular bonds of the electrolyte, think of it like when you put too much voltage on a car battery it starts to bubble… so the idea is that when we have high voltage/high frequency we can dissolve the electrolyte..
This “accumulated energy” can then be used like gas (e.g. hydrogen production) or component cleanups, recycling, etc… again it’s part only of my research…
The research has ben done in publications not assocoated with real world science. This will never produce more energy that is input.
 

Thread Starter

ccercone001

Joined Nov 29, 2023
10
The research has ben done in publications not assocoated with real world science. This will never produce more energy that is input.
We are not trying to create more energy, rather dissociate molecular bonds, hypothesis is as my previous example responses is that high frecuency is used along high voltage to rupture the dielectric resistance of the electrolyte creating a dissociation of the molecular bond.
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
17,885
To deliver enough energy to break molecular bonds, such as hydrogen to oxygen, the energy required must be provided, either by a chemical reaction or by an external power source. A resonant circuit can be used to raise the voltage but it will not increase the energy.
The laws of nature (physics) are brutal in their steadfastness. (There ain't no free lunch)
 

Thread Starter

ccercone001

Joined Nov 29, 2023
10
To deliver enough energy to break molecular bonds, such as hydrogen to oxygen, the energy required must be provided, either by a chemical reaction or by an external power source. A resonant circuit can be used to raise the voltage but it will not increase the energy.
The laws of nature (physics) are brutal in their steadfastness. (There ain't no free lunch)
We already accomplish this by using a high frecuency pulsed signal generator.. we were using an square sinal for this, but the frequency used was about 100KHz and the maximum voltage obtained was about 500-700v we want to create a circuit to handle the frecuency feedback automatically and lock it to the resonant frecuency to accomplish maximum voltage at a higher frequency about 1-5MHz.
 

Thread Starter

ccercone001

Joined Nov 29, 2023
10
We have a number of simulation tools that could be used to explore the concepts you are describing. The use of a PLL (Phase Locked Loop) is appropriate in systems where you have some type of VCO (Voltage Controlled Oscillator) that works at a high frequency, like hundreds to thousands of Megahertz and you want to synchronize it to a stable, temperature compensated, crystal oscillator (e.g. 10 MHz = WWV Standard Frequency). You do this by dividing down the output of the high frequency VCO and you synchronize it the lower frequency standard.

Acquiring (purchasing) a stable VCO at 1-5 MHz, can be done without the need for a PLL IMHO, at least for starters.

Working at high power levels is IMHO extremely dangerous for those who describe themselves as "not very good in electronics", so I urge the same degree of caution you would use for research on radioactive isotopes or super fluid Helium.

Just adding up another view of the original circuit we used for this.. by calculating the equivalent capacitance of the electrochemical cell, we adjusted the frecuency based on the capacitance and inductance of the LC circuit. we came up up to 100KHz and 500-700v using this furmula then we adjusted the frecuency. 1701371157841.png

its easy to calibrate at lower frecuencies, but our research shows that we get better results at higher frequencies and current (voltage is used to facilitate the disociation) but we want to use higher voltage in order to be able to use a higher equivalent capacitance. the folowing formula is used to calculate the equivalency of the electrochemical cell.1701371458525.png
 

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Wendy

Joined Mar 24, 2008
23,397
please do not make us drop the mod ban hammeOver unity is not allowed on this site any attempt to post will be met with consequences.
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
17,885
please do not make us drop the mod ban hammeOver unity is not allowed on this site any attempt to post will be met with consequences.
In addition to violating site rules, over unity violates a few laws of thermodynamics as well. And at that point I ask folks to explain how that works in terms that I understand. As soon as the explanation uses real engineering terms it starts to stumble. Reaching 98% efficiency is a hard task, reaching 120% efficiency is beyond my capability, EXCEPT in works of fiction. Tales of superheroes who routinely do the impossible work out very well. On paper, not constrained by reality.
 
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