When an electron is ejected by the photoelectric effect the process is entirely random and the electron goes off in a random direction.

Devices that make use of this eelctron all entail electrical guiding apparatus.

How do you propose to ensure that the ejected electron ends up at the plate on the end of your wire?

Why should it travel there ?

 

You one plate capacitor is called an antenna, and it does radiate EM waves.

Bob

 

You one plate capacitor is called an antenna, and it does radiate EM waves.

Bob

Thanks for ending the torture.

 

You one plate capacitor is called an antenna, and it does radiate EM waves.

Bob

You were finally brave enough to say it - that a capacitor works by the exchange of electromagnetic radiation between the plates. And the shape of an antenna makes no difference to the emanated waves? Show me the mechanism where a transverse wave comes off a flat radiator. So a capacitor works by the exchange of electromagnetic waves. Everybody satisfied?

 

In most practical applications near-field communications using the decoupled magnetic or electric fields are confined to the area directly under the influence of the source charges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_field_communication

I think we lost the whole near field/ far field somewhere in the next few posts. A little further down they have decided that a capacitor works by the exchange of EM waves. I guess those are both far and near field, so no need for the concept. Even so, I liked your posts. And the whole near-field thing is clearer to me. I actually use one of those things to get into my work building in the morning. That's pretty convincing!

 

Thanks for ending the torture.

As I understand it, the door is always open.

 

When an electron is ejected by the photoelectric effect the process is entirely random and the electron goes off in a random direction.

Devices that make use of this eelctron all entail electrical guiding apparatus.

How do you propose to ensure that the ejected electron ends up at the plate on the end of your wire?

Why should it travel there ?

\
The space shuttle isn't dragging a big wire to ground along behind it.

 

I guess one could envisage an apparatus comprising a parallel plate capacitor with an isolated tuned circuit interposed between the plates. With the capacitor driven at the resonant frequency one presumably observes an output from the isolated tuned circuit.
Assuming this produces a "successful" outcome one would then propose a physical explanation based on electromagnetic theory.

 

Since I started this, I'm going to summarize what (I think) I know about how a capacitor works after our exchanges. Then maybe that will end this "torture" (I didn't realize I was so mean.)

1. A capacitor works - not in theory but in practice. It actually demonstratively works.
2. No electric current passes between the two (ideal) plates.
3. There is no need for a physical dielectric or other material between the plates. It will work perfectly with a vacuum separating the plates (sorry QED'ists for using "vacuum"). The material between the plates is not electrically conductive.
4. When one plate experiences a change in its charge state, the other plate experiences an opposite change in its charge state.
5. The change in the plates is sequential - cause and effect - change one plate's net charge and then the other plate changes.
6. The plates must be conductive.
7. There is no general agreement on the speed of action between the plates.
8. A capacitor can pass a wave of AC potential across its gap.
9. No one has refuted, and I still believe that a capacitor will work even if magnetic action is excluded. I have read this is the case in a capacitor when the plates are spherically aligned. The group seems unfamiliar or uninterested in this effect.
10. Something actually passes between the plates.
11. The workable mathematical characterization of the behaviour of a capacitor based on its physical and electrical properties is available, and universally accepted.
12. I find no convincing argument that explains the mode of action between the plates.
13. I find no convincing argument about the speed of propagation of the mode of action between the plates.

I guess I can live with that -- if you can.

 

No, you are confusing propagation of waves with propagation of the field. They are not they same thing. Do you think actual photons go across the plates of the capacitor as it charges?

Bob

That is a question I would very much like answered. There is no agreement here on that. Why not, I wonder? Also, it's easily testable, don't you think?

 

Since I started this, I'm going to summarize what (I think) I know about how a capacitor works after our exchanges. Then maybe that will end this "torture" (I didn't realize I was so mean.)

1. A capacitor works - not in theory but in practice. It actually demonstratively works.
2. No electric current passes between the two (ideal) plates.
3. There is no need for a physical dielectric or other material between the plates. It will work perfectly with a vacuum separating the plates (sorry QED'ists for using "vacuum"). The material between the plates is not electrically conductive.
4. When one plate experiences a change in its charge state, the other plate experiences an opposite change in its charge state.
5. The change in the plates is sequential - cause and effect - change one plate's net charge and then the other plate changes.
6. The plates must be conductive.
7. There is no general agreement on the speed of action between the plates.
8. A capacitor can pass a wave of AC potential across its gap.
9. No one has refuted, and I still believe that a capacitor will work even if magnetic action is excluded. I have read this is the case in a capacitor when the plates are spherically aligned. The group seems unfamiliar or uninterested in this effect.
10. Something actually passes between the plates.
11. The workable mathematical characterization of the behaviour of a capacitor based on its physical and electrical properties is available, and universally accepted.
12. I find no convincing argument that explains the mode of action between the plates.
13. I find no convincing argument about the speed of propagation of the mode of action between the plates.

I guess I can live with that -- if you can.

quod erat demonstrandum

Nice summary!

 

Since I started this, I'm going to summarize what (I think) I know about how a capacitor works after our exchanges. Then maybe that will end this "torture" (I didn't realize I was so mean.)

1. A capacitor works - not in theory but in practice. It actually demonstratively works.
...
I guess I can live with that -- if you can.

One of the reasons the 'physics' capacitor seems to work differently than the 'electric' capacitor is that state of the universe as a plate almost never matters with the 'electric' version except when we deal with radiation when the spacing between the source charges, fields and receiving charges is large. The first thing to understand is that capacitors don't store charge, they store energy by charge separation. From that foundation you can move forward.
http://amasci.com/emotor/cap1.html

I'm not onboard with everything he says but most of it is good info.

 

The space shuttle isn't dragging a big wire to ground along behind it.

Your post#87 was not an answer to my question in post #81, that you linked to as though you were answering it.

The first thing to understand is that capacitors don't store charge, they store energy by charge separation. From that foundation you can move forward.

Good advice indeed.

 

The next step to move forward is to understand the relationship between electrostatics (surface charge analysis) and circuits at a simple level to see the cause and effect.
Voltage potentials and currents are secondary to the fundamental aspects of charge and fields. It's not necessary to design circuits at this level but to intuitively see the energy flow in circuits you must have the right mental picture to build on.
http://www.matterandinteractions.org/Content/Articles/circuit.pdf

 

Your post#87 was not an answer to my question in post #81, that you linked to as though you were answering it.


Good advice indeed.

You are correct, I did not. I believed there was an open ended device the converts photons into electrons that can then be collected and directed through a conductive "wire", if you will. As far as I can determine researching it, no such device exists. I was wrong. Mea culpa.

 

Unless you believe this fits the bill; https://www.google.com/patents/US68...a=X&ei=q41wVKPXNfjbsASgx4DQBQ&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAA However, it requires a ground and an interposing capacitor, which hardly seems to fit the bill.

 

Noted.
So now we can get on with addressing your actual question; it would be helpful if you would reiterate it, expanding as necessary.

Are you really interested in the physics of capacitor action?

You should realise that the charge comes first.
You can apply as much voltage as you like but you will be unable to charge the capacitor without a source of charge.
It is the addition of charge to the plates that creates the voltage, not the other way round.

 

Post # 44.

When most read that they put Weber away. It's such a shame.

The negative sign for inertia does not mean the inertia is negative. It means the inertia is out of phase.

Inertia is a electronic resonance.

Most particles in the universe are right handed.

When inertia is 180 degrees out of phase is causes left handedness.

Antimatter.

Study Weber.

The new Universal Force Theory explains all phenomena. Any universal theory would have to.

This works so well for everything.........I'm sure it will become law.

 

BR549

Please note there were three Herr Webers, you should identify which one you mean.
The quote from my post#44 you refer to was from your link, not mine. I let the comment about negative mass go because it is not pertinent to this thread.

However negative mass can be found in the Quantum (Drude et al) explanation of the Hall Effect for Holes.

If you want to discuss negative mass further then please start your own thread as it is not relevent here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_mass_(solid-state_physics)

 

Please pardon me about the post #.

You are quite right. It hadn't occurred to me.......which one.

Wilhelm Eduard Weber. The SI unit of flux is named for him.....a weber. One weber(Wb) in one square meter is one tesla.

His two brothers are still probably more renowned than he. All three were excellent scientists.

But I like Wilhelm Eduard. He experimented with electricity, but it turned out he was describing matter.

His experiments were repeated in the early 90's. Some corrections were done because of more sensitive measurements.
Four new equations were derived to replace Maxwell's equations. These equations showed the proper plasma flow in a classical physics manner.........real cause and effect.

From these equations, the structure of matter was determined. And it is the Structure that Causes the fundamental properties of matter.