Bob,

Maxwell's equations are based on 3 experiments.

1. Coulomb's law......the electrostatic force between 2 static charges........INCOMPLETE....if either of the charges move.......the equation fails.

2. Ampere's law.....the magnetic force between 2 moving current elements.....INCOMPLETE....does not consider electric field movement.

3. Faraday law...induction......fairly complete and understood by Faraday, but not by his mathematic friends. Faraday was an excellent experimenter and physicist, but a poor mather.
Faraday had a much renowned mathematical friend write his equations for him. These equations were expressed with the electrical and the magnetic from 2 different frames of reference. Of course Faraday's experiments were conducted with the electric and the magnetic in the same frame reference.

This is what Maxwell had to work with. And this is why Maxwell's equations were never correct.

And you are right......a particle would collapse if it followed Maxwell. And you are right.....that's what started us down the rabbit hole called QM.

There was another experimenter.....the greatest experimenter, who redid all these experiments together. Only his equations properly expressed the relationship between the electronic and angular momentum. His name was Weber. Study Weber to understand.

If Maxwell would have used Weber's equations....we might be living on several planets today.

And if Maxwell's equations fail on particles.........why does it not fail on electromagnetic waves thru space. IT DOES FAIL.

Weber’s corrected equations work on plasma in the fusion reactors while Maxwell’s do not.
This corrected field theory work was done in the early 90’s.

From these equations, the true structure of matter has been discerned. All particles are rotating charge rings.

And with this structure......the universal force law has been derived.

There is only one physical entity and force in the universe.........charge.

Wikipedi: 'Weber soon discovered, however, that he lacked sufficient mathematical talent, and so he abandoned mathematics entirely.' Ha!

 

First let me say that my last post to which the above quote is your response was the first of a two part explanation.
You haven't said if you followed the first part or not.

As to your question, you need to review it in the light of my first line:

I didn't envision the plate as that large. Let's say a few times the size of the capacitor plates. What's the equation?



It really depends upon how large your "large plate" is. You haven't constructed a complete circuit in your thought experiment unless the large plate is large enough to be considered as an earth. Then, if your generator is also connected to earth, the signal will pass the capacitor in the vacuum. This will happen whatever the large plate is made of.

 

First let me say that my last post to which the above quote is your response was the first of a two part explanation.
You haven't said if you followed the first part or no

As to your question, you need to review it in the light of my first line:

I can create the signal without reference to ground, for example phtoelectrically.



It really depends upon how large your "large plate" is. You haven't constructed a complete circuit in your thought experiment unless the large plate is large enough to be considered as an earth. Then, if your generator is also connected to earth, the signal will pass the capacitor in the vacuum. This will happen whatever the large plate is made of.

 

Wikipedia also says about Weber's Elctrodynamics

Limitations
Despite various efforts, a velocity and/or acceleration dependent correction to Coulomb's law has never been observed, as described in the next section. Moreover, Helmholtz observed that Weber electrodynamics predicted that under certain configurations charges can act as if they had negative inertial mass, which has also never been observed.

 

I can create the signal without reference to ground, for example phtoelectrically.
I didn't envision the plate as that large. Let's say a few times the size of the capacitor plates. What's the equation?

So you didn't understand what I said then about creating a complete circuit. I note that this has point has also been made by others here.

There was considerable discussion about the Leyden Jar, which is a large capacitor, in this thread here,

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/how-does-a-leyden-jar-work.97541/

Unfortunately the BBC video that explained exactly your point (the second video in post#2) is no longer available, which is a pity because it was investigating the same point that led Leyden to his jar.

 

I didn't ask for measurable. I asked how the thing works to produce those measurement quantities.

Huh?

It's not a matter of the quantitative behavior or our description of the results.

Then you want to discuss religion?

It's a question about the structure of cause and effect.

So test your postulate. Your theory about the internal workings of a capacitor seems to have something to do with charge accumulation on one plate without a corresponding offsetting opposite charge on the other? or is it something about how long it takes for charges to distribute themselves over the surface of the capacitor plate?

If any of these things were happening, then there should be some measurable, quantifiable external behavior that is attributable to your postulate. Show us what you have observed about a capacitor that isn't explained by the two terminal electrical model in common use today...

 

There was another experimenter.....the greatest experimenter, who redid all these experiments together. Only his equations properly expressed the relationship between the electronic and angular momentum. His name was Weber. Study Weber to understand.

Okay I started studying Weber Electrodynamics as you suggested. I only got as far as the first paragraph in Wikipedia:

Weber electrodynamics is an alternative to Maxwell electrodynamics developed by Wilhelm Eduard Weber. In this theory, Coulomb's Law becomes velocity dependent. The theory is widely rejected and ignored by contemporary physicists, and is not even mentioned in mainstream textbooks on classical electromagnetism.

I think that is enough.

Bob

 

Huh?

Then you want to discuss religion?

So test your postulate. Your theory about the internal workings of a capacitor seems to have something to do with charge accumulation on one plate without a corresponding offsetting opposite charge on the other? or is it something about how long it takes for charges to distribute themselves over the surface of the capacitor plate?

If any of these things were happening, then there should be some measurable, quantifiable external behavior that is attributable to your postulate. Show us what you have observed about a capacitor that isn't explained by the two terminal electrical model in common use today...

I'm perfectly happy with the electric field lines propagating from the charged plate to the remote plate. But, is it proven that changes in the charge state of the source plate propagate to that destination plate at light speed? Where is the theory of propagation of a varying electric field to a charged or uncharged object? - WITHOUT reference to a copropagating magnetic field? For example can we modify it or send signals with it?

 

In Classical physics, any changing electric field creates a magnetic field, and vice versa.

In Q.E.D. there are only charges and photons. What we call the magnetic field appears when you apply relativity to moving charges.

Bob

 

In Classical physics, any changing electric field creates a magnetic field, and vice versa.

In Q.E.D. there are only charges and photons. What we call the magnetic field appears when you apply relativity to moving charges.

Bob

Then you don't buy that a capacitor works
perfectly well when set up so that all magnetic components are
excluded? Or are you maintaining that it is electromagnetic fields of action between the plates that cause their interaction (induced charge movement)?

 

If the other side of the capacitor is truly isolated, then you will not get a net charge on the other plate. What will happen is that you will get a charge separation such that the electrons are either pulled toward the plate, exposing a positive charge further away, or they will get pushed away from the plate, exposing a positive charge at the plate. But you will not be able to put much of a charge onto the plate attached to the circuit because a voltage will quickly build up that will prevent further charge accumulation.

If the other side of the capacitor is part of a complete circuit, then a similar thing happens but now the electron that is pushed away can be carried along by the rest of the circuit or the electron that is pulled to the plate can be replaced by an electron coming from the rest of the circuit.

What is the need for a return circuit? Simply sink the other end to ground.

 

But, is it proven that changes in the charge state of the source plate propagate to that destination plate at light speed? Where is the theory of propagation of a varying electric field to a charged or uncharged object? - WITHOUT reference to a copropagating magnetic field? For example can we modify it or send signals with it?

Yes it comes from Maxwells second equation

\(\nabla \bullet E = \frac{\rho }{\varepsilon }\)

This was going to be part 2 of my explanation, but we haven't finished part 1.

What is the need for a return circuit? Simply sink the other end to ground.

Do you understand what ground is, especially as you earlier wished to create an argument to avoid ground.

 

Well, that explanation will catch you up to the theory in 1862, hardly what I would call modern.

The modern theory of the electrical force is called Quantum Electro Dynamics or Q.E.D. If was developed over many years by scientists from Dirac to Feynman. It involves not fields and lines of force, which are a mathematical abstraction with no real existence, but electrons and photons, and the interaction of them in relativistic space-time. In Q.E.D. the force is carried by photons. which travel at the speed of light. It is considered the most accurate theory that Physics has ever come up with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_electrodynamics


Bob

I like this whole virtual particle thing where they pop in and out of existence. So my charge deficient capacitor plate could capture the virtual electron and exclude the virtual positron keeping them from reuniting and annihilating. Kinda like Hawking radiation.

 

Well, that explanation will catch you up to the theory in 1862, hardly what I would call modern.

The modern theory of the electrical force is called Quantum Electro Dynamics or Q.E.D. If was developed over many years by scientists from Dirac to Feynman. It involves not fields and lines of force, which are a mathematical abstraction with no real existence, but electrons and photons, and the interaction of them in relativistic space-time. In Q.E.D. the force is carried by photons. which travel at the speed of light. It is considered the most accurate theory that Physics has ever come up with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_electrodynamics


Bob

I like this whole virtual particle thing where they pop in and out of existence. So my charge deficient capacitor plate could capture the virtual electron and exclude the virtual positron keeping them from reuniting and annihilating. Kinda like Hawking radiation.

Yes it comes from Maxwells second equation

\(\nabla \bullet E = \frac{\rho }{\varepsilon }\)

This was going to be part 2 of my explanation, but we haven't finished part 1.



Do you understand what ground is, especially as you earlier wished to create an argument to avoid ground.

So space is not a ground then? What about an impulse engine?

 

Yes it comes from Maxwells second equation

\(\nabla \bullet E = \frac{\rho }{\varepsilon }\)

This was going to be part 2 of my explanation, but we haven't finished part 1.



Do you understand what ground is, especially as you earlier wished to create an argument to avoid ground.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return

 

What is the need for a return circuit? Simply sink the other end to ground.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return

 

Then you don't buy that a capacitor works
perfectly well when set up so that all magnetic components are
excluded? Or are you maintaining that it is electromagnetic fields of action between the plates that cause their interaction (induced charge movement)?

I already have stated that classical electrodynamics is incorrect. Q.E.D. describes all electric and magnetic phenomena with to the degree of accuracy that we can measure.

Bob

 

I already have stated that classical electrodynamics is incorrect. Q.E.D. describes all electric and magnetic phenomena with to the degree of accuracy that we can measure.

Bob

I'm trying to visualize this in terms of what is acting, what is it acting through and what is affected. Simple mind I guess. Maybe no such visualization/analogy exists.

 

Well, the classical view is that the field propagates instantly across the capacitor, and thus charges move to match any change in charge on the other side. Which is accurate enough a description to any practical work.

The Q.E.D. view is way too complicated to even think about.


Bob

 

Well, the classical view is that the field propagates instantly across the capacitor, and thus charges move to match any change in charge on the other side. Which is accurate enough a description to any practical work.

The Q.E.D. view is way too complicated to even think about.


Bob

So the charge-motivating factor (I guess we're calling it "electric field") propagates instantaneously?

Maybe kind of like Bell's entangled photons then? Surely there is somebody out there who will argue with you about instantaneous propagation, but it strikes me as sensible.