Propagation of a pure electric field

BR-549

Joined Sep 22, 2013
4,928
Am I missing something here? Pressure and vacuum are the same thing, they just have different scales. It's like Kelvin and Fahrenheit.

This has always surprised me.
Why do people think that because you can always add something(heat, pressure, energy, length), then that means that you can always subtract something?
Magnitude is a one way street. You can always go up.......but you can never always go down.
Magnitude will always hit zero or it will reduce to so little( for instance-10 E-200 meters) that it can be ignored.

Fortunately the universe is controlled by charge......not mathematics.

I read your link on the circular capacitors...nothing new there.......I still don't get your query.

As for your space plunger set up..........if you take two machined surfaces of a metal......even on your desktop(not requiring vacuum) and touch them together......they will form and merge together without seam. Now this takes more than a common machine shop. This was done in several labs in the 70's. One application was a one use key.

If you could make the plates so they don't merge.........the only power needed to withdraw
the plunger, would be the plunger inertia.

You can not create a vacuum in a vacuum. It's like adding darkness to darkness. Does it get any darker?

But people and scientist insist on magic. There is no magic.
 

Thread Starter

cbecket13

Joined Nov 15, 2014
106
Am I missing something here? Pressure and vacuum are the same thing, they just have different scales. It's like Kelvin and Fahrenheit.

This has always surprised me.
Why do people think that because you can always add something(heat, pressure, energy, length), then that means that you can always subtract something?
Magnitude is a one way street. You can always go up.......but you can never always go down.
Magnitude will always hit zero or it will reduce to so little( for instance-10 E-200 meters) that it can be ignored.

Fortunately the universe is controlled by charge......not mathematics.

I read your link on the circular capacitors...nothing new there.......I still don't get your query.

As for your space plunger set up..........if you take two machined surfaces of a metal......even on your desktop(not requiring vacuum) and touch them together......they will form and merge together without seam. Now this takes more than a common machine shop. This was done in several labs in the 70's. One application was a one use key.

If you could make the plates so they don't merge.........the only power needed to withdraw
the plunger, would be the plunger inertia.

You can not create a vacuum in a vacuum. It's like adding darkness to darkness. Does it get any darker?

But people and scientist insist on magic. There is no magic.
 

Thread Starter

cbecket13

Joined Nov 15, 2014
106
Then this is the answer? "...the only power needed to withdraw the plunger, would be the plunger inertia." If the "tube" was non-conductive, wouldn't the Casimir effect help the withdrawl just a little. Or is the effect not universally accepted? It is based on QM, if I remember

Strange that you would assume I was arguing that the plunger would resist withdrawl beyond the inertia. I am not seeking converts, guys. I am asking questions. The only way I can judge them is by what I know and how I think. I am not indicting or advancing any particular view.

Call me a heretic of science if you wish. But that is no need for all this emotion. You make me feel like asking for explanations concerning science is some kind of attack on religious belief. I accept a capacitor works. I've seen it work and measured it. There's no assault on what you believe, for crise sake. But why do my questions offend? Or is it just annoyance.

And I washed my hands of this thing early on, if you'll recall. And I denied responsibility for what happened after that. I accepted the responses I had up till then. It's you guys who keep pushing it. If you are offended by the thread, leave it. Or, get the moderator to close it. Maybe that's best anyway.
 

BR-549

Joined Sep 22, 2013
4,928
I am not offended by your questions. Anyone who doubts QM has my immediate respect.

Some get offended because we can tell from your response to the answers.........that you have not asked your true question.

That makes us suspicious. Especially when it takes 100 post to get to it.

So what is your question? Is it the Casimir effect? Or is it going to be something else?
 

Thread Starter

cbecket13

Joined Nov 15, 2014
106
I am not offended by your questions. Anyone who doubts QM has my immediate respect.

Some get offended because we can tell from your response to the answers.........that you have not asked your true question.

That makes us suspicious. Especially when it takes 100 post to get to it.

So what is your question? Is it the Casimir effect? Or is it going to be something else?
I brought up the Casimir effect 1) because it may have direct application to the capacitor problem via its two conductive plates and the forces between them and 2) the Casimir effect is exactly what I mean by a "how" explanation. I understand how it works to my complete satisfaction. Everyone (or most everyone) has seen photons exert a force (via a Crookes Radiometer). Exclude photons on the inside while allowing them on the outside? You get pressure. That pressure, manifests as effective attraction between the plates.

As a layman reasoning it out, I can think of no reason the Crookes shouldn't work perfectly well in a vacuum. I don't need to know its exact quantitative nature to understand that. I don't deal with it in a manner that requires a mathematical description of it. I don't work in nanotechnology, for example. If I did, I could damn well understand the required math. But just because a quantitative mathematical description of its workings exists, that doesn't demonstrate how it works. I want to know how a capacitor works.

Not every "how" explanation to that effect works for me. I don't understand gravity, for example, in that manner. I don't understand "how" it works. I think many claim they do. And if you do, demonstrate it to me. Build a shield against it if you think you understand it. Create it artificially. Focus it. I'll be glad to believe that you understand it if you can do that. If not, don't answer me by clouding the issue with a bunch of equations that describe what it does. The capacitor may fall in that category for me. I don't know. That's why I asked.

Maybe the capacitor is more like the gravity case for me. Or maybe it is like the Casimir effect and the truth of its "how" is out there, or in here, and I just haven't grasped it yet. I'm willing to accept that.
 
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BR-549

Joined Sep 22, 2013
4,928
Boy, what a breath of fresh air. Good for you. I haven't heard that in a long time.
That's where you need to understand this, right behind the eyeballs and a little up.
Don't let anyone tell you different. And when someone is explaining something to you.....if it don't fit that spot,....asked someone else.....they might have memorized the math.....but their spot is empty.

So you just don't want to know, ...you want to understand HOW everything works.

You are gonna have some problems.

Quantum physics was invented because of the Failure of Classical Physics.

In electronics we use classical physics(Maxwell) to this day and it seems complete. Some swear by it.

When Maxwell failed to explain the motion of an atom, some very wild ideas came about.
Instead of considering Maxwell might be in error or the perceived motion of the atom was wrong....................it was decided that physical laws work differently on the small scale. To almost all, some mis-interpolated experiments(like slit-photon and plates-vacuum energy) proved these new laws and new science. It was decided that if there were different laws on the small scale.....there must be new laws for the cosmic scale too. It makes sense right?

Over the years this has progressed to being allowed to change the length of a meter, change the rate of time, bend space, and probability can be the cause of some event.

With these parameters, what CAN'T be proven.

I for one am tired of being Gruberizd by modern science.

The people on this site believe Maxwell explains the electronic. I believe the corrected classical equations can explain all.

I'm sure some are tired of my spiel. If interested, PM me for more info.

Whatever you do.......keep thinking the way your thinking.
 

Thread Starter

cbecket13

Joined Nov 15, 2014
106
Boy, what a breath of fresh air. Good for you. I haven't heard that in a long time.
That's where you need to understand this, right behind the eyeballs and a little up.
Don't let anyone tell you different. And when someone is explaining something to you.....if it don't fit that spot,....asked someone else.....they might have memorized the math.....but their spot is empty.

So you just don't want to know, ...you want to understand HOW everything works.

You are gonna have some problems.

Quantum physics was invented because of the Failure of Classical Physics.

In electronics we use classical physics(Maxwell) to this day and it seems complete. Some swear by it.

When Maxwell failed to explain the motion of an atom, some very wild ideas came about.
Instead of considering Maxwell might be in error or the perceived motion of the atom was wrong....................it was decided that physical laws work differently on the small scale. To almost all, some mis-interpolated experiments(like slit-photon and plates-vacuum energy) proved these new laws and new science. It was decided that if there were different laws on the small scale.....there must be new laws for the cosmic scale too. It makes sense right?

Over the years this has progressed to being allowed to change the length of a meter, change the rate of time, bend space, and probability can be the cause of some event.

With these parameters, what CAN'T be proven.

I for one am tired of being Gruberizd by modern science.

The people on this site believe Maxwell explains the electronic. I believe the corrected classical equations can explain all.

I'm sure some are tired of my spiel. If interested, PM me for more info.

Whatever you do.......keep thinking the way your thinking.
I wish I could hit the " like " button for this about 50 times. Thanks.
 

icester

Joined Dec 9, 2011
2
An electron has a constant mass and electric force field around it.
The force field due to voltage applied charges or pushes electrons onto the capacitor plate creating a bulk force field which in tern pushes off electrons from the opposite plate. The resulting currents on both sides are instantaneous to the the point where rise time of the applied voltage equivalent frequency wavelength is 10 times larger than the distance between capacitor plates.
All that assuming vacuum or air type dielectric medium...
See near field propagation speed by William Walker at arxiv.org
 
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Thread Starter

cbecket13

Joined Nov 15, 2014
106
A magnetic field generated between the plates of a charging parallel plate capacitor has never been experimental verified.
 
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