Hello all,
I have heard it said that initially it was thought that electrons traveled from positive to negative in a circuit. Now there is a strong debate contesting that and we still look at circuits with the original concept of positive to negative to simplify things. This has been incredibly hard for me to ignore. I truly wish it was never mentioned. At any rate working with a recent fly-back converter build that jumps a spark about 2". I notice the air around the positive electrode heading towards the negative. I considered the fact that air can take a charge and maybe that is a factor... What do you guys think about these findings? thanks in advance!

In regard to my last post. Thank you Dick Cappels for being the one person that did post some tangible data. Seemed ultra conservative though. You guys (moderators) I think should consider my take. To me there is nothing wrong with providing factual data on risks involved with any human event. In fact over stating the risk only devalues ones credibility and one can see the problem with that. So I feel like you shouldn't ever shy away from providing facts like these. Providing this data may also, like in this instance, prevent individuals from trying to attain knowledge that the "group" already has attained. That chart Dick, was perfect. however I do not trust the data. Would like to hear your take on its accuracy. probable death with 3kV @ nil amperage? is that what it means "--" I can only conclude being as the amperage goes down as the voltage goes up, up to that point. I dont want to alarm anyone but I have already had at least a dozen contacts with high voltage. All at very low current of course or we would not be talking of course. same reason why I do not play with the MOT. I do not have to be a genius to be pretty sure of its potential. that amount of volts and very decent amperage. Ya im kinda wise to that much. However I still do not know what kind of damage 1uf of capacitance can do at 22k. You cant tell me educating me and oth.... Oooo I think I get it. You guys might even agree. Its just less liability to not even be involved? is that it? If so that's totally understandable. specially these days.

also, I did not intend for my parting comment to be longer then my opening comment it just happened that way. I do apologize and would like the answers to both! thanks again.

 

All of this is really nothing new.

Conventional Current assumes that current flows out of the positive terminal, through the circuit and into the negative terminal of the source. This was the convention chosen during the discovery of electricity. They were wrong!

Electron Flow is what actually happens and electrons flow out of the negative terminal, through the circuit and into the positive terminal of the source.

This has been incredibly hard for me to ignore. I truly wish it was never mentioned.

Why? People survive entire careers working in the electrical/electronic field and it never matters. Do electrons flow or do holes flow and does it really matter? A forum search of this and other forums will bring up hundreds of discussions and arguments on the subject. Think about a plating operation or a DC welding operation, how does the material flow?

Ron

 

There is no debate. Conventional current moves from positive to negative. If electrons are the current carrier, they are moving in the opposite direction. [too slow on typing, again!]

 

I have heard it said that initially it was thought that electrons traveled from positive to negative in a circuit. Now there is a strong debate contesting that

Initially it was arbitrarily stated that the charge carriers were positive and moved from positive to negative (since they had no way to determine what the charge carriers were.
When they identified the charge carrier as a electron and determined it had a negative charge, it was realized that the carriers actually moved from negative to positive.
There's absolutely no debate on that.

But what is called "conventional current flow" is still defined as moving from positive to negative, and is often used in circuit descriptions.
So you can use either electron flow or current flow in a circuit description.
As long as you stick with one or the other, the circuit operation will still be the same.
Personally I use current flow because its easier for me to think of charge moving from positive to negative and in the direction of the arrows on diode and transistor symbols.

The only place that electron flow is required, is when explaining the internal operation of vacuum tubes (valves) or solid-state devices.

As to your observation of air moving towards the negative terminal, that can be explained by the fact the some of the air molecules near the arc become ionized (losses an electron and becomes positively charged) so thus are attracted to the negative electrode.

 

Vacuum tubes prove that electrons flow from the negative terminal of a battery to the positive terminal. Cathode ray tubes show that they are shooting electrons, not holes.

 

Hello all,
I have heard it said that initially it was thought that electrons traveled from positive to negative in a circuit. Now there is a strong debate contesting that and we still look at circuits with the original concept of positive to negative to simplify things. This has been incredibly hard for me to ignore. I truly wish it was never mentioned. At any rate working with a recent fly-back converter build that jumps a spark about 2". I notice the air around the positive electrode heading towards the negative. I considered the fact that air can take a charge and maybe that is a factor... What do you guys think about these findings? thanks in advance!

In regard to my last post. Thank you Dick Cappels for being the one person that did post some tangible data. Seemed ultra conservative though. You guys (moderators) I think should consider my take. To me there is nothing wrong with providing factual data on risks involved with any human event. In fact over stating the risk only devalues ones credibility and one can see the problem with that. So I feel like you shouldn't ever shy away from providing facts like these. Doing so may also, like in this instance, prevent individuals from trying to attain knowledge that the "group" already has attained. That chart Dick, was perfect. however I do not trust the data. Would like to hear your take on its accuracy. probable death with 3kV @ nil amperage? is that what it means "--" I can only conclude being as the amperage goes down as the voltage goes up, up to that point. I dont want to alarm anyone but I have already had at least a dozen contacts with high voltage. All at very low current of course or we would not be talking of course. same reason why I do not play with the MOT. I do not have to be a genius to be pretty sure of its potential. that amount of volts and very decent amperage. Ya im kinda wise to that much. However I still do not know what kind of damage 1uf of capacitance can do at 22k. You cant tell me educating me and oth.... Oooo I think I get it. You guys might even agree. Its just less liability to not even be involved? is that it? If so that's totally understandable. specially these days.

also, I did not intend for my parting comment to be longer then my opening comment it just happened that way. I do apologize and would like the answers to both! thanks again.

In a conductor can you have electron flow without hole flow? For every electron going negative to positive you have a hole going positive to negative. Vacuum tubes are a different story.

 

This may be nothing new. Just new to me. Dick says they shoot electrons from the negative. Others saying electrons go Positive to negative but holes go from neg. to pos.? all very confusing to me. Up to this point the only holes I knew of where black. Still sounds like there is some debate though. right here in this post. Interesting.

(and what the heck is a charge carrier? part of this new-to-me hole concept?)

Ron your right and I liked your point about the weld. Im not trying to make this into further discussion on an already beat down subject. I already kind of knew that it was one. I just wanted an answer to that aspect. The air flow. I think Crutschow may have answered it correctly. It was in-line with what I was already thinking. That it had something to do with particle charge. Very nice Crutshcow btw!

On a side note, This fly-back trans. safe to say it is also acting as an air purifier/ionizer? I wonder if its very effective. I can smell something that might just be really clean charged air. Not sure. I know it uses very little juice. So thats a factor.

 

Hello all,
I have heard it said that initially it was thought that electrons traveled from positive to negative in a circuit. Now there is a strong debate contesting that and we still look at circuits with the original concept of positive to negative to simplify things. This has been incredibly hard for me to ignore. I truly wish it was never mentioned. At any rate working with a recent fly-back converter build that jumps a spark about 2". I notice the air around the positive electrode heading towards the negative. I considered the fact that air can take a charge and maybe that is a factor... What do you guys think about these findings? thanks in advance!

In regard to my last post. Thank you Dick Cappels for being the one person that did post some tangible data. Seemed ultra conservative though. You guys (moderators) I think should consider my take. To me there is nothing wrong with providing factual data on risks involved with any human event. In fact over stating the risk only devalues ones credibility and one can see the problem with that. So I feel like you shouldn't ever shy away from providing facts like these. Providing this data may also, like in this instance, prevent individuals from trying to attain knowledge that the "group" already has attained. That chart Dick, was perfect. however I do not trust the data. Would like to hear your take on its accuracy. probable death with 3kV @ nil amperage? is that what it means "--" I can only conclude being as the amperage goes down as the voltage goes up, up to that point. I dont want to alarm anyone but I have already had at least a dozen contacts with high voltage. All at very low current of course or we would not be talking of course. same reason why I do not play with the MOT. I do not have to be a genius to be pretty sure of its potential. that amount of volts and very decent amperage. Ya im kinda wise to that much. However I still do not know what kind of damage 1uf of capacitance can do at 22k. You cant tell me educating me and oth.... Oooo I think I get it. You guys might even agree. Its just less liability to not even be involved? is that it? If so that's totally understandable. specially these days.

also, I did not intend for my parting comment to be longer then my opening comment it just happened that way. I do apologize and would like the answers to both! thanks again.

How accurate do you want the data? The chaps that did original experiments didn't live to reveal the results.

As for the electron, what does it matter whether it is positively or negatively charge? I believe it is yellow.

 

This may be nothing new. Just new to me. Dick says they shoot electrons from the negative.

True

Others saying electrons go Positive to negative...

I don't think anyone here said that, as it isn't true.

In metal conductors and most typical electronic applications, the charge carrying agent is the electron, and electrons move in the opposite direction to what we call "current", which is charge moving from positive to negative.

There are systems where the agent carrying mobile charge is a positively charged ion. In this case (which is not terribly relevant for typical electronics), current flows in the same direction as the charge carrier.

 

In a conductor can you have electron flow without hole flow?

In a normal conductor, yes.
Hole flow only pertains to the movement of charge in a semiconductor (a hole is simply the absence of an electron in the semiconductor lattice).
This may help clarify.

 

As for the electron, what does it matter whether it is positively or negatively charge? I believe it is yellow.

I always try to stay positive.
Max.

 

Current always flows from negative to positive. There are no holes in current.....only in ionization.

And holes don't flow. A changing hole pattern is not flow.

Science has abandoned true principle for mathematical convenience.

 

This discussion comes up every once in a while on every science/physics/electronics forum.
And it is never resolved in an amicable manner.
Get your viewpoints in before this thread is closed to further opinions.

 

In electron flow it's the orbiting electrons that can be made to move. If you take away one electron from a proton it wants to get back. Or any single free electron. Remember, opposites attract. The electron carries a negative charge and the proton carries a positive. Neutrons (different story but interesting enough) carry a neutral charge, hence the term neutron. If you take the mass of a proton and an electron and force them together you end up with a neutron - or the mass of the neutron.

Back to this flow thing: Ben Franklin assumed that positive meant more abundant. He could not have known about the mass of protons and electrons and how one is free to leave its orbit while the other is firmly held in place. So when you look at a battery, the positive end is loaded with protons and the negative end with electrons. The electrons want to go home back to the protons. So they will follow the path of least resistance and work their way back to the positive end of the battery. Hence you have electrons flowing FROM the negative end through a circuit (or wire - dead short) back to the positive end of the battery. ELECTRON FLOW!

Franklin said current would flow from positive to negative based on a faulty assumption. And the truth was not learned for many years. Meanwhile a whole concept of current flow (NOT electron flow) was from positive to negative. That's why a diode points from the positive terminal to the negative terminal. In reality it's the conventional way we think of current. Electron flow is the nuclear action that is taking place within the atoms of a conductor. The more free electrons the better the conductor.

Beyond that I don't know what to tell you. I can't offer any proof. This is what I learned and how I learned it. I hope this helps, but I'm willing to bet you already know this (or sort of).

 

This discussion comes up every once in a while on every science/physics/electronics forum.
And it is never resolved in an amicable manner.
Get your viewpoints in before this thread is closed to further opinions.

Yeah, toss in a few hopeless pedantic types, sit back with some popcorn and enjoy the show. Every now and then just fuel things and give the pot a stir.

Ron

 

If you consider current as positive charge flow in one direction, then electron flow with a negative charge in the opposite direction is mathematically consistent with current flow.

 

This may be nothing new. Just new to me. Dick says they shoot electrons from the negative. Others saying electrons go Positive to negative but holes go from neg. to pos.? all very confusing to me. Up to this point the only holes I knew of where black. Still sounds like there is some debate though. right here in this post. Interesting.

(and what the heck is a charge carrier? part of this new-to-me hole concept?)

Ron your right and I liked your point about the weld. Im not trying to make this into further discussion on an already beat down subject. I already kind of knew that it was one. I just wanted an answer to that aspect. The air flow. I think Crutschow may have answered it correctly. It was in-line with what I was already thinking. That it had something to do with particle charge. Very nice Crutshcow btw!

On a side note, This fly-back trans. safe to say it is also acting as an air purifier/ionizer? I wonder if its very effective. I can smell something that might just be really clean charged air. Not sure. I know it uses very little juice. So thats a factor.

The "Smell" is probably Ozone, O3
Health Effects of Ozone
The EPA has reported there is a variety of health effects associated with high levels of ozone. This may include decreased lung function, throat irritation, severe asthma symptoms, cough, chest pain, shortness of breath, irritation of lung tissue, and the higher sensitivity to respiratory infection. They went on to note that there were additional risk factors which can perpetuate the side effects of ozone such as undertaking activities which raise breathing rates (such as exercising indoors), certain pre-existing lung diseases, and greater duration of exposure. Ozone is a tiny molecule which is composed of three oxygen atoms. It is highly reactive which makes it an unstable and potentially toxic gas. Ground-level ozone is considered to be a major component of smog which plagues larger cities during the summertime and has been tied to a variety of potential health risks.

 

Science has abandoned true principle for mathematical convenience.

Damn right, people are lazy today. Why use a nice model of one simple quasi-particle when you can calculate, examine and explain the same effect using a handful of actual particles with complex group behavior.

 

Here is a lesson for all y'all before you post on the forum, do a google search.
Top result on the google search "which way do electrons flow" is AACs Conventional versus electron flow which explains it very well all y'all should check it out.
A.H.W.

 

Finally.