mass productions or producing on a large scale ?

MrChips

Joined Oct 2, 2009
30,449
So when a robot takes over your job, how exactly do you adapt? There are no farming jobs, manufacturing is taking over by robots, robots will soon be serviced by other robots and humans are also serviced by robots. So why are we here exactly?
Someone has to design and build the robot. I was involved with the design of the robot that was used to zap a brain tumor in me.
 

maxpower097

Joined Feb 20, 2009
816
When workers demand $70,000 a year for what should be a $20/hr job, in addition to health insurance that costs roughly $500 PER EMPLOYEE, it is extremely difficult to pay the labor AND make a profit, it is an either/or situation.

People need to realize that $35,000/year is what they are worth, unless they gather more skills for a better job elsewhere. Demanding more money from the employer for doing a job that somebody straight out of high school could do after 2 months training (1 paid month of which is spent watching OSHA regulation videos), is a bit ridiculous.

McDonalds profits billions of dollars per year, should all the employees get raises until the profit is exactly 1 million per year?
Thats great 35k is what I'm worth, but no ones paying that. They wanna pay 21,000. Sorry but I'm not gonna set up your call center and admin your CMS for the same pay as a burger flipper at mcdonalds. If you think that job is only worth 35k why do they have to ship it offshore because no one in the US would work for so little. Its really about the haves and have nots. Its hard to tell someone who busts their azz they aren't worth 25k a year, then litterally give other people $50k a day as a consultant who do nothing but place phonecalls to their friends. Say what you want, argue what you want, but at the end of the day its obvious this country is beyond screwed up and will never go back to the way it was when you could make a decent living and not break the law. I say this because most wealthy people break the law as a rule of life. Especially when playing with their taxes.

Then take into account student loans so high they have to make 70k a year to even have a shot at paying them off.
 
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justtrying

Joined Mar 9, 2011
439
a strong nod to the post above. Just to add to it, I believe that most people realize what they are "worth" however, most people also want to buy a house and pay off their student loans. These two factors play strongly into how much money they will demand. The employer may value my job at one rate, but the rules of free market that set up all those interest rates demands that I value it at something else in order to survive. If there was no debt after education, things might be different...
 

maxpower097

Joined Feb 20, 2009
816
If health carewasn't insanely expensive things would be differnet.
If the guys running the business weren't making the rulez for said business things would be different.
If we'd elected Ross Perot things would be different. :)
 

THE_RB

Joined Feb 11, 2008
5,438
If health carewasn't insanely expensive things would be differnet.
If the guys running the business weren't making the rulez for said business things would be different.
If we'd elected Ross Perot things would be different. :)
Why is health care insanely expensive? I went to the doctor once in the last 15 years and just paid $50 cash for the consulting. I spend a $100 a year or so on vitamins and try to take care of my own health. They are insignificant costs compared to other living expenses.
 

maxpower097

Joined Feb 20, 2009
816
Heres another example. I used to run a reflow oven with pick and place machine, board printer, the works! Total machine cost was near 1million. I had someone from Tyco come to our warehouse and train me on all the machines for 100 hours. Which cost our company around $20,000. I did that job pre-depression for $25 an hour and was allowed to train in other area's as I worke there. It was a win win situation. Finally near 09 I left that job because of funding issues. I went to look at pick and place machine operators and jobs for that. They wanted to pay me $9.50 an hour to teach their mexicans how to run their pick and place and reflow. I tried to explain to them you constantly have pnumatic hoses popping if its old and maintenace and programming is a big part. If these guys didn't have some sort of background I couldn't teach em. Anyways the owner of the company emailed me back and offered me a full time position on their line as supervisor for $10.50 an hour. I said no thats I know what that job intails and its not worth $10 an hour. He swore up and down he has lines all over the US and pays if line supervisors $9.50 an hour.

These people are just cheap. They don't even know how to run their equipment yet they would rather let it sit then pay someone a proper wage to set it up. My last emplyers paid Tyco $20,000 to train me. I highly doubt your gonna get those skills 1 month out of HS, but the wage will be the same.
 

maxpower097

Joined Feb 20, 2009
816
Why is health care insanely expensive? I went to the doctor once in the last 15 years and just paid $50 cash for the consulting. I spend a $100 a year or so on vitamins and try to take care of my own health. They are insignificant costs compared to other living expenses.
HAHAHHAH go today. $80-$400 for a visit. $80-$200 for a GP, $300-$500 for a specialist. An MRI cost around $600 and takes 26 minutes. Just pray you never get seriously ill or need a hospital. One hospital screw up can cost you well over $50,000. For instance if Sarge didn't have insurance they probably never would have done the surgery. Even having insurance he'll more then likely end up paying $50,000 in deductables. If he was paying cash only with no insurance like the majority of our country it would have cost $400,000. Medical bills can wipe rich family out and make them destitute. I was recently in the hospital and they told me nothing, did nothing, and charged me $5000. (or my insurance, which is me because I signed a paper saying if I ever made any money the county gets it.)
 

maxpower097

Joined Feb 20, 2009
816
For your information I dont think a $800 bill every month is insignifcant. I could be driving a ferrari instead of paying medical bills each month. Whats even sadder is my issue could be fixed iin 15 minutes with a lazer. But thats $15,000 up front for the surgery. So until I can afford $15,000 in cash in a duffle bag. I'm not getting surgery even with insurance. My insurance which is supposed to be really good said point blankly, "We don't cover degenerative conditions." End of story, Do not pass go and collect $200. See nearest rehabilitation and pain mng center.
 

maxpower097

Joined Feb 20, 2009
816
Or another funny one is whip out your yeller pages. Randomly call Dentist and ask how much a crown costs. Thats always good for a laugh. They will say $1200-$2500.
 

thatoneguy

Joined Feb 19, 2009
6,359
Or another funny one is whip out your yeller pages. Randomly call Dentist and ask how much a crown costs. Thats always good for a laugh. They will say $1200-$2500.
And they want cash up front.

I agree with you on student loans and dentists.

However, the idea of owning a house, a new car every 2-5 years, and a boat is a leftover from the boom in the 80's and 90's.

Prior to that, the average FAMILY owned a modest house, and a single 10 year old car.

Now that those grew up with those luxuries want to keep those luxuries in the current economy, it won't work unless you diversify a lot.

Most people are upside down in debt, both credit card, home, and vehicle. They never saw a recession coming, and many refuse to believe it is continuing.

The law that bankruptcy will get you a "clean start" has been ripped up, since it no longer allows credit cards or student loans. The top 2 reasons people go bankrupt. Bankruptcy used to be a humiliating thing that would get small town people giving nasty looks at you. Now, it is almost a normal phase of life for many.

If I were offered the $10.50 position of fixing the machines, I'd take it. The job would be a lot more interesting than running the damn machine, and you'd learn new skills on repairing them as well as ladder logic, while being paid (granted, not what you wanted, but better than nothing). After 1 year of "proving" you are good at fixing the line machines, they would ask if you wanted to become a shop tech for $20/hr, where you fix the stuff the night shift supervisors are unable to. Again, take it. You learn more skills.

If you quit because of the offer, you resume would state "certified to run Tyco pick and place machines".

If you continued on, your resume would state "certified in running and maintenance of Tyco and other brands of pick and place machines, knowledgeable in ladder logic, pneumatics, and overall mass production maintenance".

Say a new shop is opening in town (seriously), and they want somebody for $25/hr to help set up and run the line, with a raise coincident with your abilities as time goes on. Which resume would get chosen for an interview? The first case, or the second case?

Remember: The value of ANYTHING, even labor, is only worth exactly what somebody will pay for it, period. It doesn't matter how much money you need, if you need more, work two jobs, get more skills, to get a better job, which usually offers training.
 

Wendy

Joined Mar 24, 2008
23,396
You keep quoting all the unreasonable things people want, like a new car, etc.

That's hyperbole, and simply not the case. I drive a car that is over 10 years old, I have almost paid off my house, I have skills that are not used because the manufacturing base is gone from this country. I am barely squeeking by, I could loose everything if I lost my job.

When you start talking the greedy American line I think you are way out of line, it simply is not true, and you are using it as a deflection from the real points. Health care is not cheap in this country, neither is health insurance. We like to say we have the best in the world, but what is left unsaid is if you can afford it.

People are dying out there for lack of basic services. Maybe we can't afford to provide them, but don't pretend they don't exist. We are talking death, not discomfort.

The people who are complaining about what is happening don't want a new car, but they would like a used car that is reliable and they can afford. If you don't have reliable transportation (and in this part of the country public transport is a joke) you can't hold a stable job, and all else follows, either personal total economic collapse or squeaking by.

I usually don't participate here because I am a moderator and this is politics. I try to stay above the fry.

It disturbs me when people try to gloss over some real truths though.

Nuff said from me.
 

thatoneguy

Joined Feb 19, 2009
6,359
You keep quoting all the unreasonable things people want, like a new car, etc.

That's hyperbole, and simply not the case. I drive a car that is over 10 years old, I have almost paid off my house, I have skills that are not used because the manufacturing base is gone from this country. I am barely squeeking by, I could loose everything if I lost my job.

When you start talking the greedy American line I think you are way out of line, it simply is not true, and you are using it as a deflection from the real points. Health care is not cheap in this country, neither is health insurance. We like to say we have the best in the world, but what is left unsaid is if you can afford it.

People are dying out there for lack of basic services. Maybe we can't afford to provide them, but don't pretend they don't exist. We are talking death, not discomfort.

The people who are complaining about what is happening don't want a new car, but they would like a used car that is reliable and they can afford. If you don't have reliable transportation (and in this part of the country public transport is a joke) you can't hold a stable job, and all else follows, either personal total economic collapse or squeaking by.

I usually don't participate here because I am a moderator and this is politics. I try to stay above the fry.

It disturbs me when people try to gloss over some real truths though.

Nuff said from me.
I'm sharing experiences from helping out people that are broke, out of work, etc. I've bought them used cars, paid 6 months rent, and then give them some cash to get started, as well as helping them find a job. First thing they do is go get the latest smart phone. Within 6 months, they quit the job and end up homeless. This has happened 3 times. This confuses me.

I agree healthcare is a mess. Insurance has doubled in the past two years due to an act that was passed. Same goes for the price of prescriptions. Neither of which has helped the citizens of America.

Dentists do tend to hit you when you are weakest, when you cannot afford to get regular checkups and end up needing a root canal, you are in pain and they want half up front if you don't have insurance.

At the same time, there are public services for healthcare, which may not be top notch, but they exist. They also provide the latest medicines in the form of samples. If the illness is debilitating, one can get on disability. If you are in need of emergency help, you can go into any ER and be treated, regardless of insurance or income.

I believe the government has too much control over what happens and what decisions are made. Insurance rates have gone up the same way they do every time a state enacts a law requiring a new windshield if there is a crack or large chip in it. They seem to focus on fixing the symptoms of issues, rather than the issues themselves.

The free clinics should allow checkups and dental, they should be staffed with more cheerful people, there is always a line. I've visited them since the last thread, and have written to the county about increasing their funding.

People should be also be aware that these services exist, as loosewire pointed out in another thread. Very few are. They don't want to be popular, as they are overrun with patients the way it is, and "true" healthcare, including suggesting lifestyle changes such as exercise and quitting smoking isn't given. They end up putting band aids on the same people every time.

A lot of representatives do not concern themselves with agencies already created, they simply aim to create more, which leaves overall less money for all of them. If the representatives we elect were required to get healthcare at county clinics, I can guarantee the quality, staffing, and number of those clinics would increase greatly the next time the reps are in session.

Many in gov are disconnected from the "little people", or more accurately, about everybody middle class and below, because they don't need to follow the same rules, or deal with most of the problems we face.

At the same time, I feel people need to be responsible for themselves, and not expect to live for free unless they are unable to. Churches, outreach centers, etc all provide food and clothing to those who cannot afford it, some even provide minimal housing. Rather than working with those helping them, the majority take it up as a lifestyle, rather than the "leg up" to get them going again to build self esteem and become part of the community.

I've been broke before, I know what it is like to be at the bottom with no phone, no car, and sleeping on a couch of a friend. It is for that reason I help people I know that have problems, and am rather active in encouraging the local charities to focus more on "full treatment", including vocational rehabilitation, rather than simply stack more people into their system. When I speak of this, I get much the same response as I did when I personally tried to help 4 friends. Of the 4, one got back on top of things and is making decent money, living in an apartment, and within his means.

It's like the joke about the poor man praying to win the lottery, then God replies "I'd like to help you, but you at least have to buy a ticket".

I'm not as snobby and disdainful of others as you imply, I give everybody a chance to improve. Some people are "broken" and need psych help. Mostly post-divorce guys, they lose all their pride and possessions, and with that goes their self-esteem, energy level, and desire to even bother anymore. Unfortunately, there are extremely few free psychologists that will help such a person for free. They are all over the US. I try to find them and refer people I meet to them. When I see a guy on an on-ramp with a sign saying "will work for food", I'll take him to a truck stop restaurant, half the time the person gets angry and just wants the money instead. I'll give him $20 and drop him back off where I found him.

I'll admit my faith in the human spirit, and the American dream have been given a very sour taste based on what I've worked with, both with those in a bad situation, and those who are supposed to help them.

I may come off a bit wrong, or "hyperbole" as you say, but it's hard to see neighbors who I will pay to mow my lawn or run a snowblower for enough money to pay down their credit card interest. I give them a card for a credit counseling service, sometimes they'll go, sometimes they won't. They have a lost hope look in their eyes, and it bothers me. I am not rich enough to help every single one of them, but I do pay my share of taxes to ensure the county programs that have been set up should be running. I give to the charities and spend every other weekend morning making/serving food to those who cannot afford it.

Yes, I myself have become disillusioned with the state of what is going on today. There is a severe lack of hope. There is a huge wall to climb to start a small business, which is how most people get on top, but with the new taxes and regulations, any profit they make goes to the .gov, and they are closed a year later.

I am rather mad at the system, and very angry at those who abuse the system by under claiming income to get free stuff, or selling food assistance for drugs.
 
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justtrying

Joined Mar 9, 2011
439
getting on disability? well, don't know about US, but in Canada for most people that would be poverty level... I get a sense that the argument is being made that no assistance should be provided at all because some people will abuse it. Then what about the people who do not? To draw a comparison, some people try to abuse AAC to have their homework solved for them, then shouldn't AAC stop answering all questions?
 

thatoneguy

Joined Feb 19, 2009
6,359
getting on disability? well, don't know about US, but in Canada for most people that would be poverty level... I get a sense that the argument is being made that no assistance should be provided at all because some people will abuse it. Then what about the people who do not? To draw a comparison, some people try to abuse AAC to have their homework solved for them, then shouldn't AAC stop answering all questions?
In the US, disability provides enough for food, housing, even cable TV and an old car.

I don't agree with cutting everybody off, I am in favor of charity. Forced charity is where I have an issue, and I try to make sure those funds aren't wasted.
 

maxpower097

Joined Feb 20, 2009
816
I agree the days of the big house 2 new cars every 3 years, a nice boat, yearly family vacations are gone! Thats fine I think that grossly excess anyways. I do think everyone is entitled to make enough of a living in a 40 hour work week to afford a home, health insurance, and a new car every 7-10 years. I even believe all healthcare should be free. Rope in the prices the insurance companies have fixed and driven so high and thats that. Its pretty simple. Everyone is covered all the time. If you get sick, you goto the Dr. or hospital and get treated. Its been proven over and over that its actually cheaper in the long run because of preventative medicine.
 

thatoneguy

Joined Feb 19, 2009
6,359
I agree the days of the big house 2 new cars every 3 years, a nice boat, yearly family vacations are gone! Thats fine I think that grossly excess anyways. I do think everyone is entitled to make enough of a living in a 40 hour work week to afford a home, health insurance, and a new car every 7-10 years. I even believe all healthcare should be free. Rope in the prices the insurance companies have fixed and driven so high and thats that. Its pretty simple. Everyone is covered all the time. If you get sick, you goto the Dr. or hospital and get treated. Its been proven over and over that its actually cheaper in the long run because of preventative medicine.
Partially agree. There are some issues with that, though.

1) As shown in Canada, UK, and many other countries with .gov provided healthcare, making an appointment is something that takes a month or more, and admittance to the emergency room is only allowed if you a literally near death or have just lost a limb. Many of those patients will travel to the US JUST to be able to pay for health care. A .gov run healthcare system has no interest in keeping people alive longer once they reach age 60 or so, as there is no return on investment. That's how the government bean counters think. That is how Social Security is going broke, people are living too long.

2) Who is going to pay for the doctors with the extra patient load? The governments, both state and federal are broke.

3) Quality of care will go down, as doctors will be paid less by necessity, and time with patients, which has shown to be a very important aspect of healing (individual care with same primary doctor) would vanish. Patients would be routed in, slapped with a diagnosis and sent out the door, they may not see the same doctor again for years, if at all.

4) Finally, this doesn't address psychiatric care, dental care, nor optometry. All of which have a much higher per patient cost than a general practitioner doctor.

I fully agree things aren't going well, and I am morally certain things will get much worse before they start getting better again. I don't have a solution, other than doing what you can in your local community to ensure taxpayer money isn't wasted.
 

Wendy

Joined Mar 24, 2008
23,396
In the US, disability provides enough for food, housing, even cable TV and an old car.

I don't agree with cutting everybody off, I am in favor of charity. Forced charity is where I have an issue, and I try to make sure those funds aren't wasted.
Really, then how do you explain all the homeless, including the children? Some of them are not mentally competent, but that does not explain all.

You pick and choose examples, but are ignoring some pretty extreme cases all over the USA.
 

loosewire

Joined Apr 25, 2008
1,686
Define-primary care doctor,what should you expect a primary doctor

do for you,or what do you expect that he should be able to treat or advice

on. In other words what medical education should he have.
 

thatoneguy

Joined Feb 19, 2009
6,359
Define-primary care doctor,what should you expect a primary doctor

do for you,or what do you expect that he should be able to treat or advice

on. In other words what medical education should he have.
Standard Education, same as a family practice doc, and not as many interns they use now. The biggest part is seeing the same doctor each time. A trust develops, people need to see the doctor less as they get back on their feet.

I realize there are some that are "beyond help" AT THE MOMENT, they will need a year of psych care to get back up again from job loss, prison time, etc. The problem is, there are no therapists. The health of the mind and the health of the body are linked pretty tightly.
 

thatoneguy

Joined Feb 19, 2009
6,359
Really, then how do you explain all the homeless, including the children? Some of them are not mentally competent, but that does not explain all.

You pick and choose examples, but are ignoring some pretty extreme cases all over the USA.
I admit to ignorance in other areas of the US. I am relating what I have for direct experience. Those who choose to be homeless here are typically drug addicts, and they housing has a zero tolerance policy on drugs.
 
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