its versus it's (Ignore this post if you don't care about grammar.)

DerStrom8

Joined Feb 20, 2011
2,390
The thing is that pronouncing it "JIF" is NOT inconsistent with its spelling. If you just see the word spelled out, in the English language the pronunciation is ambiguous. Therefore, the inventor stating that it is pronounced "JIF" is perfectly reasonable on all accounts. If he tried saying it was pronounced "DIF" or "LIF" or something, then sure--I'd be skeptical and probably still pronounce it the way I think it should be pronounced. But "G" can make the hard "G" sound or the "J" sound, so it makes perfect sense for the inventor to say it's pronounced "JIF".
 

Thread Starter

tracecom

Joined Apr 16, 2010
3,944
I was just being facetious.
Sorry, I missed the irony.

After I retired from marketing, I taught high school English for a few years. During that time, I had several students who spelled their names differently from the way they wanted them pronounced. Some of them had names that were combinations of syllables from three or four different names. Some of them used apostrophes in their names to indicate changes in vowel sounds, when what they should have used were diacritical marks.

All this was okay with me, except when I tried to say their names using the standard rules of pronunciation, the names didn't come out the way they wanted to hear them, and they were irate.

ETA: From this point forward in this post, my comments are just general; they are not in response to strantor.

And that's exactly what's wrong with everyone making up their own rules of grammar and pronunciation: understanding suffers. Just imagine the chaos that would (and sometimes does) result when people make up their own schematic symbols, or use the wrong symbol for a component.

I like English as much as some of you like electronics, but experience has taught me that many people don't like it, or at least they don't like learning the rules of English. I don't understand it, but I accept it.

I make mistakes in grammar, spelling, and pronunciation. Sometimes these are typing errors, sometimes they are because of carelessness or laziness, sometimes they are deliberate, and sometimes they are because I don't know any better. I have never known anyone who never made such mistakes. My original post was intended to put forth a simple rule for avoiding a common error, and as I indicated in the title, if you're not interested, don't bother reading it. I had no intention of offending anyone.
 
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dthx

Joined May 2, 2013
195
Whew....that was something wasnt it....?
Let me apologize to any of you who may have taken offense if I emither called you out or judged ya.......
I had get a book and go the park for a while....way too much drama.
My angst on the sugject was caused by personal reasons and I understand that all of you have opinions and they are yours....
I overacted....amd Im sorry about that....
It is generally aginst my nature to pull that kind of stuff.....
D.
 

ErnieM

Joined Apr 24, 2011
8,377
The absolute worst name I have heard (and I do believe this to be 100% true) involved a child being given the name pronounced shy-theed. shy as in bashful and theed with the long e so it rhymes with seed.

This name was spelt thusly: shi-thead. Only there is no dash.

There's also the popular story about poor little Le-a. Her mother rants on and on as no one pronounces this seemingly simple name correctly as no one seems to realize "the dash don't be silent."
 

DerStrom8

Joined Feb 20, 2011
2,390
The absolute worst name I have heard (and I do believe this to be 100% true) involved a child being given the name pronounced shy-theed. shy as in bashful and theed with the long e so it rhymes with seed.

This name was spelt thusly: shi-thead. Only there is no dash.

There's also the popular story about poor little Le-a. Her mother rants on and on as no one pronounces this seemingly simple name correctly as no one seems to realize "the dash don't be silent."
That is absolutely horrible :eek:
 

Metalmann

Joined Dec 8, 2012
703
The absolute worst name I have heard (and I do believe this to be 100% true) involved a child being given the name pronounced shy-theed. shy as in bashful and theed with the long e so it rhymes with seed.

This name was spelt thusly: shi-thead. Only there is no dash.

There's also the popular story about poor little Le-a. Her mother rants on and on as no one pronounces this seemingly simple name correctly as no one seems to realize "the dash don't be silent."


That's when I'd say, "Take a hammer to it"!....

Child, and Mother.:D
 

THE_RB

Joined Feb 11, 2008
5,438
The grammar offense that most annoyed me, and is now thankfully dropping out of common usage, is the "overuse" of "parenthesis" for some kind of "emphasis."
...
It annoys me too, but I do it. :)

Quote marks are a very easy way to add emphasis and have become a typed modernism. Basically because it's much easier to type two " characters than to use start and end HTML brackets to emphasise a word or phrase in bold or italics. If you have a faster/easier/better way to emphasise words please speak up.

Brownout said:
(re "splode")
Sounds like you've been watching too many "I Love Lucy" reruns.
Well most of America's west coast are talking like Ricky Ricardo these days. And the east coast has its own problems; people saying "aight" instead of "alright", "bidness" (shudder) etc. One side of the country is going Mex, the other side going Black. The role models of the youth seem to be to blame.

Derstrom said:
The thing is that pronouncing it "JIF" is NOT inconsistent with its spelling. If you just see the word spelled out, in the English language the pronunciation is ambiguous. Therefore, the inventor stating that it is pronounced "JIF" is perfectly reasonable on all accounts.
...
Actually I'm pretty sure there are rules! GIF is an acronym. It should properly be pronounced as three letters, using three syllables, but it's an allowable modernism to contract to a single syllable word.

In which case the pronunciation should be based as close as possible to the original three words. Because Graphics has a hard G the new word GIF should also have a hard G.
 

Brownout

Joined Jan 10, 2012
2,390
Well most of America's west coast are talking like Ricky Ricardo these days. And the east coast has its own problems; people saying "aight" instead of "alright", "bidness" (shudder) etc. One side of the country is going Mex, the other side going Black. The role models of the youth seem to be to blame.
People on the west coast who talk like that are non-native english speakers or those who grew up in a non-native english speaking community.

People on the east coast who talk like that are speak an Applician dialect that has been that way for a few hundred years. Mostly in West Virginia, but spread around the other Applician states to a lesser degree.

Actually I'm pretty sure there are rules! GIF is an acronym. It should properly be pronounced as three letters, using three syllables, but it's an allowable modernism to contract to a single syllable word.

In which case the pronunciation should be based as close as possible to the original three words. Because Graphics has a hard G the new word GIF should also have a hard G.
I don't think that's a rule.
 
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tshuck

Joined Oct 18, 2012
3,534
Well, this is getting ridiculous!

Will I look down on someone for using a "there" hominem incorrectly, no, not unless they are supposed to be an authority on the matter. Despite this, my point has been used many times out of context. I said I get peeved, that is no one else's concern but mine. I choose to overlook it or not. How many times have I corrected anyone on the forum for their incorrect usage? How many times have I refused to help someone because they could not formulate their request in formal writing? Never.

It bugs me, yes, but you are the ones that are allowing the incorrect usage to get in the way.
 
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tshuck

Joined Oct 18, 2012
3,534
What's wrong with starting a list out with a colon?
Like this:
(1) thing
(2) other thing
(3) colons rule!

My last name is Staton, but I insist people pronounce it "Strantor" - am I wrong? It's my name, after all.
There is nothing wrong with using a colon for a list, however, a colon is not required for a list.
 

Georacer

Joined Nov 25, 2009
5,182
I don't think this was ever discussed in regard to non-native English speakers.

However, in my opinion, each person should use his own native language to an adequate degree.

Just like any other necessary skill, such as driving, cooking, walking and washing the dishes.
For driving, for example, if one chooses to get a license, he isn't supposed to be a race driver, but at least he should be able to drive responsibly and avoid accidents. Not only for other people's sake, but for his own character and self-awareness.

Similarly, one should be able to handle his native language properly. Not do aerobatics with it, but use it responsibly and carefully.
You might say that it is required, since no lives are at stake, but I believe that a badly written manual or a convoluted conversation over the phone is just as damaging.

Of course, this is just my opinion.
 

Thread Starter

tracecom

Joined Apr 16, 2010
3,944
I don't think this was ever discussed in regard to non-native English speakers.

However, in my opinion, each person should use his own native language to an adequate degree.

Just like any other necessary skill, such as driving, cooking, walking and washing the dishes.
For driving, for example, if one chooses to get a license, he isn't supposed to be a race driver, but at least he should be able to drive responsibly and avoid accidents. Not only for other people's sake, but for his own character and self-awareness.

Similarly, one should be able to handle his native language properly. Not do aerobatics with it, but use it responsibly and carefully.
You might say that it is required, since no lives are at stake, but I believe that a badly written manual or a convoluted conversation over the phone is just as damaging.

Of course, this is just my opinion.
That's a totally reasonable position, and it is completely out of place in this thread.

And don't forget that the United States of America doesn't have an official language, hence all the tri-lingual packaging on the shelves in our stores. Of course, since very little of the product is made in the USA, I suppose that having it covered with non-English is appropriate.
 
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DerStrom8

Joined Feb 20, 2011
2,390
I hadn't realized that. Just... wow!
It's true, I've met Spanish-speakers, French-speakers, English-speakers, several Asian-speakers (different languages, of course), even some Germans and Russians. I guess that's why people call the US "the Melting Pot" -- It's made up of many different cultures.
 

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
29,979
While being tolerant of grammar errors is one thing, we should also be willing to point them out (when appropriate and in an appropriate way) in order to help people improve their grammar. If it's likely that someone just made a typo, ignore it and move on. I've there is reason to believe that it is a systematic error, then it is reasonable to mention it and point out the correct way to do it. Of course, in doing so you run the risk of discovering that youi are actually wrong -- but that just makes it a valuable learning experience for you, too.

How quickly and how much you do that depends on the context. When dealing with someone that seems to be either a native English speaker or otherwise conversant in English (or is living in an English-speaking country) then make the point more quickly and fully. When dealing with someone that is clearly ESL and may use English only where necessary (such as to communicate on this board), then be much more willing to meet them partway and figure out what they mean. Also, keep in mind that some people's "English" is the result of using automatic translators and the person themself doesn't understand a whit of English.
 

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
29,979
I hadn't realized that. Just... wow!
It's particularly "wow" when you consider that the U.S. has had significant levels of non-English speaking immigrants throughout its history (even before its history). But, historically, immigrants to the U.S. came with the knowledge and specific intent of integrating into the American culture and society. They might live in self-defined, defactor "enclaves" and preserve many of their native traditions, but they understood that to achieve the goals that they came here for required that they assimilate and function within American society and not try to insist that American society make accommodations for them. The result is that, until relatively recently, English was the defacto "official" language of the U.S. and most immigrants went to great pains to learn it and, even more so, to ensure that their children learned it and were fluent in it. Most understood that the single most important thing that they could do to increase the likelihood of their children's success in America was to insist they learn English as their primary language -- and that the single most damaging thing they could do to hinder their children in America was to let them fail to develop strong English skills. Of course, this attitude has undergone a significant shift in the last few decades.

The reason we don't have an official language is because, as a society, we have historically applied the principle that it is not the government's place to dictate what you have to do because it knows what's good for you. You can choose to do it or not and accept the rewards and penalties that go along with your choice. Of course, the days of government living by any limiting principle appear to be well and truly behind us.
 

WBahn

Joined Mar 31, 2012
29,979
Didn't know there was an acronym for that!
I thought about spelling out the acronym (and really should have).

ESL - English as a Second Language

There are LOTS of programs and requirements and so forth and so on that involve whether a person is a native English speaker or not. So that acronym has been around for quite some time and is pretty (and increasingly) widely used.
Are they many in your opinion, MrAL?
MrAL :confused:

I don't catch the reference.

I didn't know there were any until I started participating in this forum. But I have run across many here and have even learned (I think) to spot some of the odd word/phrase usage that seems to go along with the various common translators.
 
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