Isolation Transformer with self regulating circuit question

Thread Starter

Tonyr1084

Joined Sep 24, 2015
7,905
I've been reading about Isolation Transformers (IT). Safety is my first (and at this point) main concern. I don't have plans to build anything just now but I have already built an isolation transformer using two transformers from similar microwave ovens. Basically I opened the core and removed the high voltage coils from two. Removing the mains coil from the second, I pushed it carefully into the first core, then welded the core closed again. Nuff about that.

I have recently come across several power supplies that were used in a high school electronics classroom. They were built either early 70's or before. One (and only one) has a regular 1:1 isolation transformer, which is operational. Great. Not concerned with that at this moment. The others have a second secondary that is looped in with a capacitor in there as well. I'm told this causes the transformer to go into saturation and ignore some variances with main power. In other words, regardless of the input (within reason) the output remains the same. And my measurements have shown that. On the input side I'm seeing 118 volts AC and on the secondary I'm seeing 127 volts (something like that, measured this a couple weeks ago). The power supply also has auto transformers (variable transformers), and so when I turn the output way low to just a few volts, when I measured the output on a scope I got nearly a square wave. Asking here on AAC I was told that's because of the capacitor. It tends to cause an otherwise sinusoidal wave to act more like a square wave. Which is what I saw. I was also told - and would expect this to be true - that some devices won't like the nearly square wave.

So I'm asking if I can reliably use these transformers to regulate power (within reason) and what I can and can not use them on.

Like I said, I don't have any plans for these at present. It's likely they will sit in my stock for many years to come. Perhaps when I die and someone inherits my property they're going to wonder even what a transformer is or what it's used for. But I'm old school. I still think of power regulation in the terms of 7805's and 12's. PWM and SMPS are new concepts to me (and I use them).

Any advice? Direction? Suggestions? Safety concerns?
Isolation Transformer.jpg
 

dendad

Joined Feb 20, 2016
4,479
I've got a resonant regulator (or what ever you call them) to. It has been sitting in my workshop for years and never been even plugged in. It has been forgotten so I should dig it out and have a look at it. Probably 10 plus years ago it was given to me and went into the " I might do something with that some day" pile of stuff. Fero-resonant is the term that springs to mind, but that may be wrong.
If it wasn't so late here I might look it up.
 

Thread Starter

Tonyr1084

Joined Sep 24, 2015
7,905
Fero-resonant is the term
Yes, I believe that was the term.

10 years and no project for it? Wondering if maybe I could build an alternator on an old lawn mower and power this FR Transformer. If power goes out - and it hasn't in many years - I might be able to run a refrigerator, provided it's big enough to handle the load. Actually I don't think it is. May weigh 20 pounds though.
 

Dodgydave

Joined Jun 22, 2012
11,304
I've been reading about Isolation Transformers (IT). Safety is my first (and at this point) main concern. I don't have plans to build anything just now but I have already built an isolation transformer using two transformers from similar microwave ovens. Basically I opened the core and removed the high voltage coils from two. Removing the mains coil from the second, I pushed it carefully into the first core, then welded the core closed again. Nuff about that.

I have recently come across several power supplies that were used in a high school electronics classroom. They were built either early 70's or before. One (and only one) has a regular 1:1 isolation transformer, which is operational. Great. Not concerned with that at this moment. The others have a second secondary that is looped in with a capacitor in there as well. I'm told this causes the transformer to go into saturation and ignore some variances with main power. In other words, regardless of the input (within reason) the output remains the same. And my measurements have shown that. On the input side I'm seeing 118 volts AC and on the secondary I'm seeing 127 volts (something like that, measured this a couple weeks ago). The power supply also has auto transformers (variable transformers), and so when I turn the output way low to just a few volts, when I measured the output on a scope I got nearly a square wave. Asking here on AAC I was told that's because of the capacitor. It tends to cause an otherwise sinusoidal wave to act more like a square wave. Which is what I saw. I was also told - and would expect this to be true - that some devices won't like the nearly square wave.

So I'm asking if I can reliably use these transformers to regulate power (within reason) and what I can and can not use them on.

Like I said, I don't have any plans for these at present. It's likely they will sit in my stock for many years to come. Perhaps when I die and someone inherits my property they're going to wonder even what a transformer is or what it's used for. But I'm old school. I still think of power regulation in the terms of 7805's and 12's. PWM and SMPS are new concepts to me (and I use them).

Any advice? Direction? Suggestions? Safety concerns?
View attachment 135196
Ask yourself the question " why do you need to isolate something from the mains"??
 

crutschow

Joined Mar 14, 2008
34,464
Wondering if maybe I could build an alternator on an old lawn mower and power this FR Transformer. If power goes out - and it hasn't in many years - I might be able to run a refrigerator, provided it's big enough to handle the load.
The problem is, the transformer depends upon a resonant frequency to regulate the voltage, so it's very sensitive to line frequency.
The varying frequency of the alternator would give a variation in the transformer voltage output as shown below.

upload_2017-9-17_12-30-5.png
 

Thread Starter

Tonyr1084

Joined Sep 24, 2015
7,905
"Why do ( I ) need to isolate something from the mains?"
You never know when you're going to be working on something. Safety is of concern. Besides, 'Knowledge is power'. To know how to put a satellite into orbit doesn't mean you're going to. But understanding the mechanics of things sometimes leads to serendipitous discoveries. Now, I don't expect to discover the electron through my endeavors, but still, I've been a curious one. When seven years old I took my dad's brand new gasoline powered lawn mower engine apart because I wanted to know how it worked. To this day I've never built a lawn mower engine. But the knowledge has been useful in many other areas.

Why do I need one? Like I said, I haven't a clue. But I have one. In fact, I have eight of these. Why? Because the school was cleaning house and I was offered them on the condition that I took all of them. Along with their oscilloscopes. Two nice dual tracers, one Heath kit and one monster scope. Both older scopes look like a student probably hit them with 120 VAC. They light up but they don't trace anything. I have because I have.

GEEZ! Forgot to post this hours ago.

Crutschow, thanks for reminding me of frequency. Starting to look like I may just have several paperweights. Oh well. Like I said, I don't have a project in mind for this, so - - - .
 

MaxHeadRoom

Joined Jul 18, 2013
28,698
The down side with these types of CVS regulators they run in saturation all of the time and are power wasters, and always run exceptionally hot. Any load on the output brings the tank out of saturation so that the output voltage is kept constant.
We used them some years ago on industrial machinery, but they got expensive to use and requires a heat shield around them for personnel safety.
One popular manufacturer is/was Sola. http://www.solahevidutysales.com/power_conditioning.htm
Max.
 

nsaspook

Joined Aug 27, 2009
13,312
The down side with these types of CVS regulators they run in saturation all of the time and are power wasters, and always run exceptionally hot. Any load on the output brings the tank out of saturation so that the output voltage is kept constant.
We used them some years ago on industrial machinery, but they got expensive to use and requires a heat shield around them for personnel safety.
One popular manufacturer is/was Sola. http://www.solahevidutysales.com/power_conditioning.htm
Max.
Exactly, we used them to regulate voltage to computer system on ships before modern online UPS systems. They were big, hot and noisy from the cooling fans, plus:


If you ran the unit at a fraction of the rated load the efficiency was horrible.
 
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