IR sensor and a DC motor

ci139

Joined Jul 11, 2016
719
with the actual inventory?
3x NPN 1xPNP 6x resistors
voltage follower and the other as Schmitt trigger.
:):D;) 3-4 resistors for schmitt 3-2 for follower
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((What it's worth . . .)) -- no warranty - whatsoever it'll actually work /!\ -- depends on transistors ir-Sensor and adjustability by 100k pot , and that the components won't get blown while adjusting the grid to operation /!\
_Draft-init-iR-rmt-sw-0a.png . . . it also may be considered using the 100k pot + photo-diode to bypass the motor and locking the power switch - giving it some 90µA standby + finding a capacitor set up a triggered timer control. . . i'm not into figuring that one out now . . .

;) be better than me !
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. . . usually if you don't do it now - you'll never do it o_O here we go
_Draft-init-iR-rmt-sw-t0a.png
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Both of the above circuits have question marks as :
• if the motor already is not self timed to run the round loding cycle then you have to time the iR source on 1-st example
• in the second example the delay depends on env. temperature and battery condition
(for 9V 6F22 the loading cycles for 1-st 5 rounds may occur normally but then the battery "exhausts" and following may fail -- if the weather is warm - above 20°C(68°F) - the internal chemistry recovers the battery charge in 30 minutes to several hours)

shortly you may need a more complex control circuit for any practical and reliable operation
 

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ci139

Joined Jul 11, 2016
719
motor will respond very quickly
chatter from an occasional flash
on will cause havoc
e op-amp isn't any smaller than a
:D:D:D

yet another item to chk-list the iR source has a peak wavelength & the iR sensor has a peak wavelength . . .

(9-0.5-2.2)·1V / 400Ω = 6.3V / 400Ω = 16mA - there might be such motors - but it also may draw 150mA up to 400...750mA (would require isolating the drive with diode-capacitor emergency supply)
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http://www.vishay.com/docs/80085/measurem.pdf
http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com/Articles/Infrared-phototransistor-receiver-circuit.php
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http://www.instructables.com/id/Full-Auto-Airsoft-Gun/
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(i'm getting more than enough of the discrimination of the WinXP e.g. other than mainstream OS-s users -- i personally don't see any reason why i have to pay extra money to switch to worse software than that i already have . . . ??? is it because then i can participate in internet forums feeling as "normal" human being -- i don't expect anyone doing anything about it -- perhaps i just shouldn't return here -- nor similar minded communities . . .)
 
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Thread Starter

Jonasz

Joined Aug 26, 2016
9
Thanks a lot for the help.

The problem is that I don't have electronic knowledge to create circuits.

I thought that would be simple to activate a dc motor from a IR receiver.


Ci139, I didn't understand why so many components on that circuit, I could not test it.



The best circuit until now that I've tested was this one
2N3904 Tip42.jpg


This one is the closest one I found to make the project work.
But the motor work with half of its power when connected to the battery.

Do you know how to make a simple circuit like this one that would be a little more sensible to light and that would make the motor have more power like it was direct connected to the battery ?
 

wayneh

Joined Sep 9, 2010
16,102
Have you tried a commercially available darlington transistor? You have come close using your two transistors but the darlington, which is designed for maximum current gain, might do a better job.

Bottom line, you are attempting to get very high gain from the tiny current in the sensor to the much larger motor current. To me the simple solution is not to build my own amplifier, even if it is just 2 transistors, but to use an op-amp or comparator integrated circuit. These are purpose-designed for this application and would do a fine job, allowing for easy fine-tuning of the sensitivity and cutoff point. They're very easy to use and save all the mucking around.
 

ci139

Joined Jul 11, 2016
719
The problem is that I don't have electronic knowledge...
our class headmistress was a psychic she literally pulled me through the final test in geography just asking the guiding questions in the order and wording that i could track down the information stored in my brain i had not been aware it's in there ??? e.g. the people do know a lot more about everything they actually think they do

as the wayneh already said -- you can use 2x 2N3904 for darlington or and BC557 + TIP42(or 2 of them in parallel) to gain better amplification (if you use them all you need to soften the response by tieing the base(s) to emitter(s) with 100kΩ dn to 150Ω resistors - must be tested)

it's also possible the 9V battery has insufficient power for motor (while your existing circuit is already providing enough gain ...)

if you could measure the actual current the motor consumes
(10A range of multimeter from battery(+) to motor(+) ! there is usually a separate RED wire socket for 10A current measurment )
if the amperes reading is decreasing (climbing down) fast during measurement then it indicates
1. - the battery becoming empty or weak
2. - the battery being not capable providing required power (the 9V consists of 6x 1.5V cells in series -- each smaller than 1.5V AAA)​
and either the current through iR receiver diode
(stepping down the multimeter current range from 200mA expected is 2mA or 200µA range)​
OR from the collector of 2N3904
(stepping down the multimeter current range from 200mA expected is 200mA down to 2mA range)​
- - - the whole pictrue'd be much more clear
 

Thread Starter

Jonasz

Joined Aug 26, 2016
9
our class headmistress was a psychic she literally pulled me through the final test in geography just asking the guiding questions in the order and wording that i could track down the information stored in my brain i had not been aware it's in there ??? e.g. the people do know a lot more about everything they actually think they do
Subconscious knowledge I guess. Yes I think that we know more than we think we do. But I guess to that be possible we should have been exposed somehow to that information in some point of our lives, probably when we were not paying attention, but our subconscious was listing.
I know your point, but the problem is that I was never exposed to that information. I live in Brazil there is no introduction to electronics in school, nothing at all. A mouth ago I didn't know what was a transistor. When I saw one I thought that would be so simple to use one on a IR receiver with a dc motor. How beautiful is the innocence of a thinking line when you don't know that thing will not be so simple.


as the wayneh already said -- you can use 2x 2N3904 for darlington or and BC557 + TIP42(or 2 of them in parallel) to gain better amplification (if you use them all you need to soften the response by tieing the base(s) to emitter(s) with 100kΩ dn to 150Ω resistors - must be tested)
I guess that I cant do that without a circuit schematic
I would like to do something simple, because I still dont understand circuit schematic that are too complex


it's also possible the 9V battery has insufficient power for motor (while your existing circuit is already providing enough gain ...)
Without the circuit the 9v battery makes really stronger


if you could measure the actual current the motor consumes

4.jpg
Tested without the circuit, The pointer is stable



385911-MLB20654633796_042016-Y.jpg
That is the battery that I'm using




57cc8f043a2b5_DCMotor9v.thumb.png.1622304c0e1379d555068a887ca09c53.png
That is the dc motor
57cc8f20ab97d_DCMotor9vimagemafastada.thumb.png.a34183035d8f80eeb86769d45eae9c88.png
DC motor far view to compare with a hand size



The motor comes from this part:
http://www.rap4.com/p/015069/gen4-box-magazine-tray-complete-assembly?osCsid=l9q6j0ss250isku4k0u4r66437


That is the original product:
http://www.rap4.com/p/010085/rap4-box-magazine-with-nautilus-drive


I asked the live chat support for the dc motor model and he said that "those specs do not exist unfortunately. The manufacturer has disappeared and this item is discontinued. If you want you can email the Support and the techs can give you a more detailed answer"
The email has been send


The IR receiver is a TIL78


What I've tested so far with help from a Brazilian forum:


57cb5d75d753f_BC548TIP42.jpg.4681cb1e9dcff6e1ee6e72c10c89dc0c.jpg
With a led it works
With the motor, the receiver have a poor IR sensitivity, the motor run extremely slow
The BC548 overheat in 5-10 seconds



57cb61618bec4_BC548BC337.jpg.d05ff6884b9a2ffdb1985f5fbf4c1e50.jpg
With led it works
With the motor does not have poor IR sensitivity, but it run very slow
The BC337 overheat in less than 5 seconds




2N3904 Tip42.jpg
With led it works
With the motor it could have a better IR sensitivity, the motor run faster with this one but still without enough power
The transistor heats a little but does not overheat
 
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ci139

Joined Jul 11, 2016
719
? did this motor ever run at normal speed - so you know what speed it should run ?
?? if so was it powered by the same type of 9V battery or something else ??
??? also was it then attached to the RAP4 round loader ???

-- this is essential to know for not to break the motor by overpower

-- it may manage up to 2x over voltage - but at longer run they need to be operated near nominal values


usually it's good to have datasheets in hand to get common device capabilities , pinout (there have been few cases where it actually does not match the one on datasheet so it's practical to confirm "stuff" (device parameters) before using it)

for transistors from datasheet i first look up (under ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM RATINGS)

** I.C collector current
continuous and pulsed usually the pulsed current is 2x to 10x higher than continuous ,
where the continuous current safe to use -- without PCB as heat sink or without a special heat sink -- is 2x , 3x down to 10x lower of that shown for Ic continuous Abs.max​

** V.CEO collector emitter voltage
exceeding that the transistor pops "open" conducting (no matter what the base-emitter voltage is) and likely burns out​

** P.D(.max for given ambient)
total device power dissipation
(without any heatsink) in 2N3903-D.pdf it's the -- Total Device Dissipation @ TA(ambient temperature) = 25°C -- 625mW
Derate (5.0mW/°C) above 25°C . . . means that at 150°C (sauna , motor compartment , e.c. the air temperature in)
it'll be 625mW - (150°C - 25°C)·5mW/°C =
= 625mW - 125°C · 5mW/°C =
= 625mW - 625mW = 0mW
it's Zero milliwats - so the device is not supposed to be used at 150°C surrounding temperature​
the thermal resistance - junction to ambient - tells how much the temperature will rise above the ambient at given power
R.JA = 200 °C/W for 2N3906
incase of 9V supply and typical 30mA collector current - without any significant collector or emitter load (resistor) we get R.CE = 9V/30mA = 0.3kΩ = 300Ω -- the power dissipating on transistor is mainly that dissipating on CE.dynamic resistance - the R.CE so the P.D = approximately P.R.CE = I·U = 30mA·9V = 270mW​
so in case of the air temperature T.A being 25°C the product of R.JA · P.D gives us device's temperature rise over ambient =
= 200 °C/W · 270mW =
= 200 °C/W · 0.27W =
= 54°C = ΔT.J
and the actual device temperature ΔT.J + T.A = 54°C + 25°C = 79°C
• if it's 625mW @ 25°C the transistors ΔT.J = 200°C/W · 0.625W = 125°C and T.J = ΔT.J + 25°C = 150°C
• if we got ? ideal heat sink mounted the temperature increase 'll b ΔT.J = (250/3)°C/W · 0.625W = 52°C and T.J = 77°C
the man considers anything over 42...45°C as "hot" -- so weather the device is in allowed working region is better to be measured or computed.​
** I.B.max -- maximum allowed base current
for 2N3904 it has to be looked up from the context -- it's (The I.B) listed as values 1.0mA and 5.0mA also plotted in graphs as fraction of I.C where I.C.max = 200mA -- thus I.B max had to be 200/10 = 20mA - so it might be wise not attempt to exceed the value
** f.T -- transition frequency -- 300MHz for 2N3904 -- usually it means there won't be complications using it up to 30MHz

** h.FE or ß -- the current transfer ratio , and it's dependency on I.C (Fig.15 -- where normalized means the multiplier for h.FE = 300 listed above in datasheet pg.2)

usually - you need to look up those things only once or couple of more times per device - to remember

the BC548 likely overheats because of the full opening and passing perhaps more current than required to the base of TIP42
usually you limit the base current according to I.B.max ,
and expected voltage drops on semiconductors :
U.CE is usually 0.5V (varying 350mV to 1.5V and more) ,
U.BE is usually 0.7V (600mV to 1.1V)
thus required limiting (9.0 - 0.5 - 0.7) V / select-lowwer(I.B.max.TIP42 = 2A , I.C.max.BC548 = 100mA = 0.1A) =
= 7.8V / 0.1A = 78Ω (it might be lower 68Ω or even less because 9V battery is usually below that value - especially when there's parallel load resistance as DC motor in here)

********************** here is not as much data as it figures - the forum uses large fonts !! *********

if IR receiver passes more than 200µA datasheet(I.fw.light > 1.0mA @ 5V I.fw.dark ~ 25nA @ 30V) AND the BC548 is super beta ( h.FE over 500 ) the R.C (series collector resistor) for BC548 is not to be lowered too much !!

random about TIL78 sample connection for photo-sensor - relay driver

CoppertopMN1604.png
??? ▲ here it shows 250mA ??continuous drain?or?duty 1:something.idle?? (i'm using GP - and it can likely do such at continuous drain) ▲
anyway the battery capacity is 250mAh for 250mA draining , 325mAh for 100mA draining , 430mAh for 50mA draining


CoppertopMN1604discharge-rate.png
guessing terms : DC(direct current) Resistance , DOD(degree of discharge) at spec. rate
• those batteries are not meant for high power applications : i assume - hourly cycles of 30mA up to 1s cycles of 250mA
if your motor draws 500mA you'd need 2x upto 17x batteries in parallel for 1h heavy drain operation
theyre actually capable providing over 5A !!! short circuit current for several seconds when fresh (but such is not their intended use)
 

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ci139

Joined Jul 11, 2016
719
What I've tested so far with help from a Brazilian forum:



With a led it works
With the motor, the receiver have a poor IR sensitivity, the motor run extremely slow
The BC548 overheat in 5-10 seconds
--- the BC548 may have higher beta (or h21e or hFE) than 2N3904 -- a lot current goes through TIP42 base and BC548 collector exhausting the battery so that it does not have enough power for motor neither to provide 5V voltage drop over the TIL78 photo-transistor

With led it works
With the motor does not have poor IR sensitivity, but it run very slow
The BC337 overheat in less than 5 seconds
--- here you have implemented(set up) the negative feedback mechanism -- the more BC337 opens -- the lover becomes it's U.CE (collector to emitter voltage drop) -- by that limiting it's own base current (the collector current for BC548) - thus not enabling it to open enough to power the motor --- the non complementary darlingtons have higher than 0.5V collector to emitter voltage drop
-- if you feed (400mA / 190 -- likely hFE of BC337) = 2.1mA from +9V-terminal through a current limiting resistor to BC548 collector it likely will be enough to run the motor safely through BC337 collector
iR-ctrl-00.png
for the current limiting resistor you need about (8V - 0.6V - 0.7V) / 2.1mA = 6.7V / 2.1mA = 3.2kΩ (adjust s-l-o-w-l-y your 22kΩ potentiometer or set it in series with 1K resistor - the least of which would limit the collector current and also protect the potentiometer at low resistance)
 
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Thread Starter

Jonasz

Joined Aug 26, 2016
9
? did this motor ever run at normal speed - so you know what speed it should run ?
Yes, it works well when connect direct to this battery View attachment 111546



if so was it powered by the same type of 9V battery or something else ??
??? also was it then attached to the RAP4 round loader ???
the motor works well when connected to that battery, why should I use something else?
I dont have a that loader, just the tray, use this part but is a different project



-- this is essential to know for not to break the motor by overpower
-- it may manage up to 2x over voltage - but at longer run they need to be operated near nominal values
Anything weaker than a direct 9v battery wont be strong enough to make the system work
The problem is that the circuit is reducing the motor power






Im not sure how to connect the 100k pot in this circuit.
iR-ctrl-00.png
Is that correct?
 

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Thread Starter

Jonasz

Joined Aug 26, 2016
9
Well I've tried this one, the motor run slow

I guess that I just cant make this motor run from a transistor, not even using a mosfet, tried too many times too many circuits, but does not work, I need to learn electronics first to be able to calculate the right components


First I would like to thanks all the people who tried to help me, I've learned a lot of stuff and that is way more valuable than the project it self.

But it's time to quit. thank you again, cya
 

ci139

Joined Jul 11, 2016
719

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wayneh

Joined Sep 9, 2010
16,102
I guess that I just cant make this motor run from a transistor, not even using a mosfet, tried too many times too many circuits, but does not work, I need to learn electronics first to be able to calculate the right components
I think what you learned is that a high current-gain amplifier is not so easy for a beginner to design. I believe there is a 2-transistor solution to your problem, but your experiments show that it is not as simple as slapping them together.

I know you probably thought my advice of using an integrated circuit was too complex. I felt the same way at first. I assure you that once you embrace the IC, you'll never go back. Using ICs gives you so much more flexibility that you will never gain without them.

An op-amp (or a specialized op-amp called a comparator) is a very high gain amplifier IC designed by experts to do exactly what you want. With just a bit of extra wiring, you gain a predictable and reliable solution that is easy to adjust for sensitivity. The extra wiring is mostly because you have to provide power to an integrated circuit. After that, it's not much more difficult than hooking up your transistors.

You would still need a transistor to switch the motor because a typical op-amp does not have enough output power to run your motor. I'd use a MOSFET. The IC would give you a strong on or off signal to control that MOSFET.
 

ci139

Joined Jul 11, 2016
719
a comparator) is a very high gain amplifier
I'd use a MOSFET.
"I believe you!" . . . still it is most likely* here that the gain is sufficient for the iR sensor which is of no use coz the motor uses tiny 6LR61 at it's limits . . . so , using the TiP42 darlington eats off the voltage of about 1 AAA and for the BC337 is required a state of the art control×cooling to fit in - just about . . . perhaps!

* -- made a quick test (i've never worked with photo-diodes before) with old ball mouse iR-LED and bi-pht-D ... by just powering the led by 3mA the sensor climbed to 10-s of µA-s from 200nA (caused by FLB room lighting - by covering the sensor the reading faded to "zero" - below the smallest scale unit - 100nA) from 2-inch distance (100x difference) and above the 1mA in contact (smallest possible range 10000x difference)

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since i myself rather burn transistors than bother into any boring thermoMath
i might've passed some mis-information in previous posts
here a quick prom-overview of ther-Math (LDO-s much similar to High power Bi-Po and Fi-Ef -transistors)

T-M.png
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(it's good) know your meter (i'm not shure about the exact model-manufacturer - but i gess it hits close)

http://www.petervis.com/meters/samwa-yx-1000a/samwa-yx-1000a.html
http://radiolub.ru/page/multitester-sunwa-modeli-yx-1000a
in order to measure the current through the motor you likely have to extend the range using external shunt (and 200mA to 500mA fuse to protect your meter) . . . it's not a must -- might become a "head ace" to derive the values for shunt calculation (as the internal construction of your actual tester may deffer from the Spice model)
10Aby500mA.png !!! However much easier - not safer is to measure ampermeters terminal resistance while it's set to some range - say to 500mA - and compute the shunting resistor from formula R.SH = R.RNG / ( I.EXTd / I.RNG - 1) -- numerically (assuming R.500mA = 3Ω) R.SH = 3Ω / ( 10A / 500mA - 1) = 3Ω / ( 10A / 0.5A - 1) = 3Ω / 19 = 0.158Ω = 158mΩ =aproximately 2/13 is 13x 2Ω resistors in parallel = 154mΩ more exact'll be 12x 2Ω and 3Ω in parallel = 1/(12·1/2+1/3) = 1/((3·6+1)/3) = 3/19 - - - you have to error trial your shunt value . . . and . . . still after quick test i used 250mA range on analog tester erroneously measured the terminal resistance to be 5.8Ω as it later came ot was 4.6 to 4.7Ω (so the meter with extending shunt about 0.149Ω showed near twice what was expected) to compensate that i added a resistor where there was fuse in complex v. with the value of 6.7Ω - it turned out to be quite practical calibration procedure = (1) assume greater terminal resistance (2) calculate and make (greater resistance shunt than it otherwise were) (3) fine tune by resistor before meter -- it takes another meter with greater range however to set the one being extended up right - - - so - - - it's not very practical advice here . . . . . . . . as it is still too complex procedure (without extra equipment and loads of resistors laying around) . . .
. . .
just had a thought of leap 10A/.25A=40x might be too big (the error gets in from the terminal and external shunt resistances being too far from each other) . . . so i reattempted the " !!! much easier v. " with lesser leap 2.5A/.25A=10x . . . and voila - it worked - i re re-measured the terminal resistance for 250mA range and got it equally 4.35Ω on two separate meters so shunt R.sh = R.trm.rg / (I.xt / I.rg - 1) = 4.35Ω / (2.5A / 0.25A - 1) = 483.3333...mΩ = 1Ω||1Ω||29Ω||29Ω = 1/(1/1+1/1+1/29+1/29) = (1/2)/(30/29) = 29/60 = 0.483333... exactly! - the meter worked fine without futher adjustments for 2.5A range ---- it is that you have to be careful when measuring also you have to get the same readings repetitiously - on multiple devices or by different methods - such rises the probability them being valid or close to the actual ones
 

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wayneh

Joined Sep 9, 2010
16,102
... the gain is sufficient for the iR sensor which is of no use coz the motor uses tiny 6LR61 at it's limits
Yes, I think that's part of the problem. The TS has shown that the circuit works fine with the small load of an LED. Some of the battery current is not passing through the motor, also.

It would be easy to resolve the questions by measuring battery terminal voltage under load. A few measurements would show where the weak links are. Base currents, collector voltage, etc.
 

ci139

Joined Jul 11, 2016
719
I made some test with a 18V DC motor from hot air gun
and a fresh 6LR61 9V
at nominal voltage the motor draws 750mA e.g. uses 13.5W

at first the motor used 900mA but in seconds it dropped and stayed stable at around 600mA

whitch sums:

battery internal resistance at 600mA is 5.6Ω , batterys el.-motoric force is 8.15V
running motor dynamic resistance is 8.0Ω , voltage drop on motor 4.8V !!!

by adding one AAA to battery the total internal resistance would be 6.1Ω and apropriate emf 9.65V
the voltage drop on motor 5.5V and the current through circuit 680mA

assuming the motor 'd be half as powerful (16Ω) and using 6LR61 only
the voltage drop on motor 6.0V and the current through circuit 380mA

the 3-rd of what was tested (24Ω) : 6.6V and 275mA
the quarter (32Ω) : 6.9V and 215 mA <•> -0.7V BC337 : 6.3V and 200mA <•> -1.5V darlington : 5.6V and 175mA

my fresh battery kept quite steady at 600mA - so i guess the actual motor falls closer to that than the latter - i also assume that they use a motor close to used battery name value e.g. 9V DC motor . . . that exactly fits to specified impedance of 1700mΩ (8Ω / 5 = 1600mΩ) from datasheet . . . only the also specified 250mA on the same datasheet suggests we should be using 3x such batteries in parallel

. . . i don't have experience with power reserve margins for such applications but i gess it'd take 12V re-chargable or heavy duty AAA or any better to set up the additional controls here . . .
——————————————————————————
9-12V-test.png
about КТ973Б
 

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Tonyr1084

Joined Sep 24, 2015
3,584
Just a stab in the dark here, but when the motor switches on doesn't it pull significant current away from the PD and the switch? Could that be why the LED works but the motor doesn't? Maybe you should build a detector circuit powered from a small coin battery or two and a MOSFET to switch on the motor powered from a stronger source (aka, 9v Battery).

Remember, when the motor switches on it's like a low resistance. A low resistance is going to channel MOST of the current through it and leave the rest of the circuit starving for juice.
 

Tonyr1084

Joined Sep 24, 2015
3,584
Here's what I was thinking: (and in my drawing I did not specify any components and did not show any resistors or anything else you might engineer into the design).
PD n Motor Switch.png
 

ci139

Joined Jul 11, 2016
719
A low resistance is going to channel MOST of the current through it
i suspect the same tough - we quite can't confirm it - there might be some slight difference setting the brushed motor polarity
or rebuilding the whole thing (?just to be able to run more efficiently from small power batteries ???)

also "live"
.
.
.

while i have had thoughts of building some devices that employ a DC motor - i've never come to that point yet

►► we'd need someones advice here who actually knows what to expect and what to do with them in any specific situation . . .
 

ci139

Joined Jul 11, 2016
719
i collated my battery data to somewhat optimistic estimate -- approximately applies to alkaline, Ni-MH, (older) Li-ion
PPD.gif
top down 6LR61,AA,AAA -- the values for ccDC (constant current discharge) are more realistic than E(energy capacity) changed them from 500,1100,2500 to enable the column ccDC . . . as it's obvious from here the bigger battery won't give you much increase in energy capacity but enables that energy to be drained in higher discharge rates (is like using smaller ones in parallel) . . . not to confuse you with the specific ccDC values listed here - if Duracell "allowed" it's COPPERTOP to be discharge somewhat at 250mA then for others we can expect 2x and 5x of that
 

Thread Starter

Jonasz

Joined Aug 26, 2016
9
I found a simple solution
2N3904 Tip42 - Cópia.jpg

its just missing the diode. and it is a 6v relay

It is working now. paintball pistol with 50 paintballs and electronic feed =)
In the future I will install a pull solenoid on the other pin of the same relay, and it will become full auto :D


Thanks
 
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