Help with developing an intermittent circuit.

Tonyr1084

Joined Sep 24, 2015
7,852
The major question is how will you see which rotation is the one to inhibit the plug firing on?
Exactly the point I seem to have failed to make clearly. Yes - exactly, which spark are you wasting? The combustion stroke? Or the wasted spark? Let your DDFF (Double D Flip Flop) miss a single clock signal and your timing will be 180˚ off and your engine will stall out.

As has been said already, you need to sense the exact position of the cam shaft in order to eliminate the wasted spark. That is to ground the ignition during that wasted spark. Whether you can accomplish that with a second set of points INSIDE the crank case or not - you have to get that signal outside the case. Only then can you cut the wasted spark. But you're still left with the problem of timing for firing a hydrogen charge. But lets suppose you already have figured out how to change the timing so the spark occurs at TDC (Top Dead Center): What are you going to do to prevent hydrogen from gathering inside the crank case? Or backfire through the intake manifold? I would think you would have to put heavier springs on the valves to ensure they are absolutely closed when they're supposed to be. You will also have to make sure the valve seats are perfect. Or near perfect. But there's still the natural blow-by that occurs because piston rings do not seal 100%. They have to be gapped so when they heat up and expand they don't jam the cylinder. But if they don't close up all the way then you have blow-by. Especially when the piston, cylinder and rings are cold. All these problems should have been already considered by a true engineer. Someone questioned whether you're truly an engineer. Well, I'm not an engineer. And yet I have considered these issues. I'm also NOT a small engines guy. I can fix them. I can modify them. So I can understand the issues that need to be addressed. That's why I said my opinion is that you best leave well enough alone. Otherwise you're potentially going to be surprised at how much can go wrong with an internal combustion engine.

I wish you all the best. But you're still going to have to use some kind of points or contact internally on one of the two cam lobes. Without looking back, I think this may be an over head cam setup. If so - the problem becomes easier, but it's still not fool proof. Oil, especially dirty oil, can be conductive. Buildup on the points can cause the entire shutdown of the engine. But an engineer should already know all this stuff.

Good luck.
 

Tonyr1084

Joined Sep 24, 2015
7,852
The ONLY practical way to eliminate the Wasted-Spark is with a "Camshaft-Position-Sensor".
If you use one of the lobes inside the crank case you can use a CPS. But it's going to have to withstand being in an oil environment, along with a great deal of heat. But even if you go this route you're going to need some kind of electronics package to determine when to cut the ignition so as to block the wasted spark. Easy enough to do with a transistor I suppose, but I'd have to do some thinking on just how to go about that. But the transistor will have to be rated to handle the voltages it's going to be pulling to ground. And those voltages - I just don't know what they would be.
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
18,167
Since the claim is that this is for an engine of a standby power generator, My goal would be for the best possible reliability. That means avoiding the addition of extra electronics and fuels that are hard to get and not available from multiple suppliers. For my gasoline fueled generator I have six gas stations within a mile and over a dozen within 2 miles. And so if one is closed because their power is out, others are still open and happy to sell me some fuel.
 

shortbus

Joined Sep 30, 2009
10,045
The biggest problem with this project is that
it is not going to supply a House with Electricity for FREE.
.
.
.
That is what I was getting at when I posted this -
Sniff, sniff, I smell over unity here....
I imagine him thinking(since he claims to have found a way to make unlimited hydrogen) that he thinks he can run the engine on the hydrogen and use the excess power to keep on the lights.
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
18,167
I have a backup generator that can avoid the expense of gasoline. But to do that I need to connect it to the gas meter so it can run on natural gas. That is not cheap but it beats needing to add more gasoline every few hours..
Unfortunately it will need a one inch pipe feed line for the distance I need to run the gas pipe to it. THAT will be a royal pain.
 

Tonyr1084

Joined Sep 24, 2015
7,852
All in all, I've rarely had to run a generator. In the past 15 years living in this house I only had one time I needed it. Just the expense of the generator to run for a few days - convenient - but expensive (the purchase) - I can't justify all the modifications for just an emergency backup generator. Like @shortbus said, this has the smell of an over-unity device. Why would someone go through the expense and hassle of building this elaborate device for a 2 days out of 5664 days (number of days in this house)? I HAVE had minor outages, but usually on the order of just a few hours. I just don't see the need for the elaborate invention.

OK, if you want to build your generator so it can run on hydrogen - go ahead. Let us know how that works out for you. You've already gotten your answer - a cam shaft position sensor and a computer to fire the ignition at the correct time. To be extremely accurate you'll also need a crank shaft position sensor so you know when you're at (or near) TDC.

When your money is spent and gone up in smoke - you'll be the wiser for the experience. An expensive experience, but hopefully a well learned lesson.
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
18,167
Can you help with being more specific on the "A D type FF can be used to short one of the two sparks via the Stop-Wire " system? I am at a loss here... need a schematic or something. Thanks!
p.s. I have a few trick on my sleeve to account for all the issues that you mention and many some others you do not realize.
Actually there is a simple solution to the hydrogen "valve off" problem. Given that the hydrogen will be stored at some higher pressure, all that is needed is to use direct fuel injection. The same sensor that would be used for the spark can instead trigger the hydrogen blast into the cylinder just a bit before the spark. Since the generator will run at a constant speed that delay between injection and spark will be a set-once thing. Of course, with direct injection there will probably not be any problems with that second spark, but since the injector time is already available the single spark will be free. AND the problems of a hydrogen carb are eliminated. Adding the injector should be fairly simple, as well.And it can be fired with a simple capacitor discharge system much like the spark plug, except for different voltages.

Please note that this post is in response to post #39 or #40 .My goof.
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
18,167
In response to Tony, post #47, the year I bought my generator there were no outages over 2 seconds. But the next year we had an outage of 2 and a half days. So running it for 2 hours twice every daay kept the freezer frozen and the refrigerator cool enough. So the loss avoided paid for the gas burned the first time I used it. And in an emergency it is possible to siphon gas out of one car and run the generator. I would prefer to use the natural gas hookup but that would be a HUGE expense to have the pipe run, and a pain to do myself. But I might do it eventually if I become very ambitious.
 

Tonyr1084

Joined Sep 24, 2015
7,852
I would prefer to use the natural gas hookup
If I were to install (or have installed) a whole home generator I would have it supplied by natural gas. That's a no brainer. Besides, in the dead of winter who wants to go outside to gas up a generator? But for the 2 days in 5662 days I've lived here - I'll suffer through with the gasoline engine. No expenses of modifying anything. And when I hook it into the house I plan (haven't done anything yet) is to have a lock out breaker system where I can not back feed the grid, or if power is restored while I'm running the generator - that'd blow my inverter.
 

Reloadron

Joined Jan 15, 2015
7,501
In response to Tony, post #47, the year I bought my generator there were no outages over 2 seconds. But the next year we had an outage of 2 and a half days. So running it for 2 hours twice every daay kept the freezer frozen and the refrigerator cool enough. So the loss avoided paid for the gas burned the first time I used it. And in an emergency it is possible to siphon gas out of one car and run the generator. I would prefer to use the natural gas hookup but that would be a HUGE expense to have the pipe run, and a pain to do myself. But I might do it eventually if I become very ambitious.
How far would you need to run pipe? I am running a natural gas, full automatic transfer 3/4 inch line about maybe 50 feet across basement to generator. I did need a larger supply line which was taken care of by East Ohio Gas company at no charge to me and a larger natural gas meter. My previous unit was a 13 KW natural gas unit which did fine for 11 years on the old 1/2 inch line. Then I went with a 19 KW unit. The old 13 KW runs fine and auto transfers just fine, just does not make any power. :( That unit ran just fine with 1/2 inch line. When I went larger I started to work things out when I decided to call the gas company. All I paid for and all I did myself was run 3/4 inch from meter manifold to generator. I still have my old Coleman Power Mate 4 KW unit gasoline powered just in case. It gets cold up here and I hate dark and cold. I keep 5 gallons of fresh gasoline on hand using Stabil and every 6 months or so just dump it in the truck and replace it.

My biggest mistake was when I bought that first gasoline unit not buying one with a large fuel tank.

Ron
 

Reloadron

Joined Jan 15, 2015
7,501
No expenses of modifying anything. And when I hook it into the house I plan (haven't done anything yet) is to have a lock out breaker system where I can not back feed the grid, or if power is restored while I'm running the generator
Just get an automatic transfer switch. Mechanical and electrical interlock from mains power and genset power. Buy one or roll your own based on current.

Ron
 

Tonyr1084

Joined Sep 24, 2015
7,852
How far would you need to run pipe?
Just a guesstimate, about 80 feet.
Just get an automatic transfer switch.
New construction. I could have done that to begin with but because of such high cost overruns I opted for not spending more than I could afford. Yeah, an auto-transfer switch would be nice. But right now all I have to do is change a few breakers so that one can not be active when the other is. That and a 240V plug. My generator is not a big one, so it would be used for heat in the winter and refrigeration in the summer. A few lights and maybe a low power consumption swamp cooler. Not a lot, just the necessities.

But back to this thread - - - I just don't think setting up such a situation when you have reliable power is not a project that is called for. However, if you were in an area prone to disruptions then yes, go with the optimal power source. But I'd go with natural gas and forget about hydrogen. IF you go with an HHO system just understand that if your generator is going to produce 100 Kw your HHO system will draw 110 to 150 Kw of power. It's a no win situation.
 

Reloadron

Joined Jan 15, 2015
7,501
Just a guesstimate, about 80 feet.

New construction. I could have done that to begin with but because of such high cost overruns I opted for not spending more than I could afford. Yeah, an auto-transfer switch would be nice. But right now all I have to do is change a few breakers so that one can not be active when the other is. That and a 240V plug. My generator is not a big one, so it would be used for heat in the winter and refrigeration in the summer. A few lights and maybe a low power consumption swamp cooler. Not a lot, just the necessities.

But back to this thread - - - I just don't think setting up such a situation when you have reliable power is not a project that is called for. However, if you were in an area prone to disruptions then yes, go with the optimal power source. But I'd go with natural gas and forget about hydrogen. IF you go with an HHO system just understand that if your generator is going to produce 100 Kw your HHO system will draw 110 to 150 Kw of power. It's a no win situation.
Oh yeah, I hear that. I have a brother 10 years my junior who has yet to learn he can't spend money he does not have. I would do as you mentioned and set up a simple pony station. Just make sure it's back feed proof or as you mentioned, really bad things happen.

Yes, back on topic. I have no clue of the why? I really don't know if it's a proof of concept, an expensive proof of concept or what. Anyway, it would seem there is no shortages of challenges. Short of all sorts of modifications I do not see this coming to fruition easily and from a practical approach. I would not have started with a gasoline fueled engine. Anyway I wish the thread starter the best of luck.

Ron
 

LowQCab

Joined Nov 6, 2012
4,023
"" p.s. I have a few trick on my sleeve to account for all the issues that you mention
and many some others you do not realize. ""


I'd be willing to bet my last Dollar that You don't.
You've been watching too many YouTube-Videos from India.

An Internal-Combustion-Engine,
especially of the small-industrial-type like the one in your Generator,
are hideously inefficient, barely making it over the ~10% efficiency mark.

The Alternator it's self, is probably only around ~70% efficient, on a good day.

So, your Electricity Generating "Plant" has around a ~7% efficiency rating,
so You will be throwing away about ~93% of the Energy that You put into this "Power-Plant".

If You have such a fantabulous new discovery that flips this narrative on it's head,
show us how wrong we all are, and divulge how You managed to pull-off this miracle.
.
.
.
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
18,167
How far would you need to run pipe? I am running a natural gas, full automatic transfer 3/4 inch line about maybe 50 feet across basement to generator. I did need a larger supply line which was taken care of by East Ohio Gas company at no charge to me and a larger natural gas meter. My previous unit was a 13 KW natural gas unit which did fine for 11 years on the old 1/2 inch line. Then I went with a 19 KW unit. The old 13 KW runs fine and auto transfers just fine, just does not make any power. :( That unit ran just fine with 1/2 inch line. When I went larger I started to work things out when I decided to call the gas company. All I paid for and all I did myself was run 3/4 inch from meter manifold to generator. I still have my old Coleman Power Mate 4 KW unit gasoline powered just in case. It gets cold up here and I hate dark and cold. I keep 5 gallons of fresh gasoline on hand using Stabil and every 6 months or so just dump it in the truck and replace it.

My biggest mistake was when I bought that first gasoline unit not buying one with a large fuel tank.

Ron
My pipe run will be close to 100 feet, with quite a few elbows, because of having to run the long way around the house. In this area the gas meters were in front of the house to make it simpler for the meter readers at the time. (1940's) And the generator set would be behind the house, both for shorter wiring and for assuring that it will remain in my possession, plus for appearances. As none of the system would be automated, the transfer scheme will not need automation either. Adding a second gas meter would be a real expense, based on our gas company. So that is not a consideration presently. And the fuel tank is adequate for quite a few hours of run time, so adding gas until the change is really not a big deal for me.
 

Thread Starter

JuanCaste

Joined Dec 8, 2021
16
"" p.s. I have a few trick on my sleeve to account for all the issues that you mention
and many some others you do not realize. ""


I'd be willing to bet my last Dollar that You don't.
You've been watching too many YouTube-Videos from India.

An Internal-Combustion-Engine,
especially of the small-industrial-type like the one in your Generator,
are hideously inefficient, barely making it over the ~10% efficiency mark.

The Alternator it's self, is probably only around ~70% efficient, on a good day.

So, your Electricity Generating "Plant" has around a ~7% efficiency rating,
so You will be throwing away about ~93% of the Energy that You put into this "Power-Plant".

If You have such a fantabulous new discovery that flips this narrative on it's head,
show us how wrong we all are, and divulge how You managed to pull-off this miracle.
.
.
.
Yes, is a big giant I am trying to kill... and he is hiding behind a humoungous wal!
I won't take you on the bet so as not to steal your money... but you can buy one when I start selling them...LOL
Thanks for all the people that contributed to the chat! This is the first time I have used a forum and I am amazed at the respone. I got everyting I needed to know plus a lot more!!
 

MisterBill2

Joined Jan 23, 2018
18,167
That barrier is that hydrogen as a purchased fuel is far more costly than gasoline as a purchased fuel. And elemental hydrogen produced by any of the mechanisms that I am aware of is not usable as fuel as it is produced. Separating it by a molecular sieve from high pressure well-head could work but most folks do not live near accessible gas well-heads. Normal chemical reaction production produces free hydrogen at low pressure mixed with steam. Electrolysis of water can produce hydrogen but with poor efficiency, as a lot of waste heat is also produced. The mechanism using sunlight and a catalyst is unclear as to the temperature and pressure of the as-produced free hydrogen, so I can't comment there.
So my money would be with LoQ as to the success.
BUT good luck, and let us know.
 
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