The whole we don't profile thing is a joke. If they aren't profiling, they need to. You can't fight terror/drugs/crime by just randomly going after people. Fact is weather we like it or not, statistics are statistics. And if one group of people is responsible for 90% of a certain infraction. Then they should be carefully screened and given extra attention too. I don't mean like Arizona's laws, but I don't mind anyone being pulled aside from boarding a plane and searched very well. I personally would opt for a female officer to pat me down rather then the machine but its your choice so its a non issue. Just do one or the other. If you have nothing to hide then it shouldn't bother you.

 

I don't mean like Arizona's laws, but I don't mind anyone being pulled aside from boarding a plane and searched very well.

What about Arizona's laws have to do with airline safety?

If you have nothing to hide then it shouldn't bother you.

Wonderful logic. Not. Do you understand anything about unreasonable search and a right to privacy (Judge Bork notwithstanding)? Limitations on governmental powers?

John

 

What about Arizona's laws have to do with airline safety?



Wonderful logic. Not. Do you understand anything about unreasonable search and a right to privacy (Judge Bork notwithstanding)? Limitations on governmental powers?

John

You still have the right to privacy. If you want to bring a bunch of drugs or explosives rent a car, don't fly. If you fly, you forfeit any right to privacy you have when it comes to being searched. I strongly believe this. Theres just too many plane that have blown up and way too many attempts. Shoe bombers, underwear bombers, UPS bombers, etc... enoughs enough. Everyone need to be searched even our corrupt gov.

About the Arizona law thats where I think profiling is going overboard.

 

You still have the right to privacy. If you want to bring a bunch of drugs or explosives rent a car, don't fly. If you fly, you forfeit any right to privacy you have when it comes to being searched. I strongly believe this. Theres just too many plane that have blown up and way too many attempts. Shoe bombers, underwear bombers, UPS bombers, etc... enoughs enough. Everyone need to be searched even our corrupt gov.

About the Arizona law thats where I think profiling is going overboard.

Why do you forfeit any right to privacy when walking onto a Privately Owned Transportation Service??

That is similar to stating it is entirely logical to have a TSA analog strip search you before going into a Wal Mart, or for a cleaner analogy, when getting a ride by Taxi.

 

If you fly, you forfeit any right to privacy you have when it comes to being searched. I strongly believe this.

That is where we differ. First, there are alternative ways to stop contraband on passenger aircraft without the invasive searches. There are even serious doubts whether the current invasive search would have detected the underwear bomber.

Second, and most important, you say someone sacrifices his right to privacy, it they want to fly. What's the logic there? What will be next, going on a train? Going to the courthouse? Driving on an Interstate? Going to a shopping center? Riding on a bus? Going to a National Park? How about visiting a reservoir? There is no end to where one could be made to sacrifice privacy in exchange for false safety.

John

 

Did you see the 2 airlines that had to emergency land last night?

Both Delta.

"Bad things happen in threes." Don't worry, though, they already had three engine failures (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/11/22/delta-airlines-suffers-engine-problems-day/?test=latestnews).

I guess since the number of airplanes still flying is being reduced, maybe you will get a good one.

 

That is where we differ. First, there are alternative ways to stop contraband on passenger aircraft without the invasive searches. There are even serious doubts whether the current invasive search would have detected the underwear bomber.

Second, and most important, you say someone sacrifices his right to privacy, it they want to fly. What's the logic there? What will be next, going on a train? Going to the courthouse? Driving on an Interstate? Going to a shopping center? Riding on a bus? Going to a National Park? How about visiting a reservoir? There is no end to where one could be made to sacrifice privacy in exchange for false safety.

John

I'd say some trains too. Any form of transportation where their are over a certain number of people aboard. We will fix most of the holes requiring scanners and patdowns over the next 10 years anyways. I'm fully confident they will be able to detect explosives in a building by sampling the air, I figure facial recognition and cameras in public places will be standard. And technology will remove the need for pat downs and booby scanners.

 

And by then, I guess, Big Brother will be watching over us with love and care...

 

"Bad things happen in threes." Don't worry, though, they already had three engine failures (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/11/22/delta-airlines-suffers-engine-problems-day/?test=latestnews).

I guess since the number of airplanes still flying is being reduced, maybe you will get a good one.

Or maybe my plane will be one that helps reduce the number of planes that are still flying..

jpanhalt, I can count on you to make me feel better.

My comedian of a dad keeps saying similar things... over and over.

Dad! I can only wet myself so many times today!

 

And by then, I guess, Big Brother will be watching over us with love and care...

How I dream of the day Obama will hold me to his warm bosom.

 

Part of the problem as I see it is to appease the few we will inconvenience (to the point of relinquishing basic freedoms) the many. There is a perception that you can have perfect safety, which in my mind is false. Safety is as much a state of mind as reality.

It's like the joke about a man approached a guy jumping up and down. "What are you doing" he asks. "Scaring off snakes" is the reply. "But there aren't any snakes here" the first guys says. "See!"

It is much like proving a negative, it is almost impossible.

 

First, there are alternative ways to stop contraband on passenger aircraft without the invasive searches.

John

John, what are some alternatives?

 

Simple metal detectors, X-ray of carry-on (i.e., current methods), profiling, and hiring Israeli security.

Most important, the failures of our current screening methods have been related to poor training, sloppy agent performance, and poor supervision. Improving those aspects should be the first priority, before implementing newer black boxes that will still not be idiot proof.

John

 

Simple metal detectors, X-ray of carry-on (i.e., current methods), profiling, and hiring Israeli security.

Most important, the failures of our current screening methods have been related to poor training, sloppy agent performance, and poor supervision. Improving those aspects should be the first priority, before implementing newer black boxes that will still not be idiot proof.

John

I agree 1,000% (thats a lot) with hiring Israeli security.

(Story time, and announcing another job that I held)

When I was 18, my brother and I had a job at BWI airport working for Ogden Aviation Services. The main flights we handled were IcelandAir, AirJamaica, KLM, and Elal.

Elal is an Israeli airline. They had security starting at the ticketing counter. Armed security.

The ticket person took your bag, it was immedialy grabbed by a soldier, you were questioned about the bag, then the soldier placed a sticker on the bag, seperate from the standard airport sticker..a little colored dot..

The bag went on the bag-belt.

It came down to me in the bagroom.

Elal used a can system for luggage. Typical flights do not use luggage cans. The luggage is stacked in the belly of the plane.

With cans, the luggage is stacked in "cans" in the bagroom then the whole can is loaded at once onto the plane. Many cans can fit in the plane and the logistics people tell us what order to put the cans on to keep the planes weight level, or balanced.

So, the bag arrived onto the bagbelt. Before I could touch it, another soldier checked for the sticker, then nodded to say I could stack it in a can.

The cans were locked by that soldier, and then followed to the loading device by that same soldier. Plane is loaded.

THEN, an armored vehicle with a 50 cal mounted and manned, followed the plane as it taxied toward the runway.

This armed and armored vehicle rode beside the plane during the takeoff run, until the plane outran it and left the ground.

The first time I was sent to work Elal, my boss pulled me aside and said:

"These guys are not %^#$ing around. They are allowed to and will #^$&ing kill you!"

Thanks boss!

Additional soldiers watched over maintenance, cleaning, and every other aspect of plane business where a human was involved.

Uzis, if you were wondering.

 

<blink><blink>....
Ooookayyyy... that is beyond my imagination. I haven't seen something even close to this not even in films. You guys have taken security and anti-terrorism measures onto a whole new level.

I think once I saw that applied in Greece too, I would consider it very seriously to move to Africa. I am really concerned about militaristic practices in security. I don't need to worry too much though. Greece resembles more to Bulgaria than any other developed European country. It will be decades until we reach the point to take the security of the borders seriously.

No offence towards any Bulgarian forum member meant.

 

One fact that is overlooked in the frenzy to ensure safety is that since 9/11, there have been roughly 100 million commercial flights originate in the USA. (That number is hard to pin down, but is based on an estimate 30,000 per day found by Google.) How many of those flights have been hijacked or bombed? None. Those attempts that have made the news were either foiled or did not originate in the US.

Although our current system has the personnel failures* mentioned above, just how can one prove in any statistically valid manner that the new, invasive procedures will be an improvement?

John

*One of the best laughs in the past week was when the director of TSA (or DHS?) lamented that they had so many employees, they couldn't be expected to get them all trained. Duh.

 

Also keep in mind the amazing statistic of how many Terrorists were stopped or caught by the TSA: ZERO.

 

Two terrorist, afraid the new security proceedures would reveal the bomb they carried, detonated the explosive while standing in the security line. The blast killed 200 and injured hundreds more.


^

Who thinks that can't happen?

 

Simple metal detectors, X-ray of carry-on (i.e., current methods), profiling, and hiring Israeli security.

Most important, the failures of our current screening methods have been related to poor training, sloppy agent performance, and poor supervision. Improving those aspects should be the first priority, before implementing newer black boxes that will still not be idiot proof.

John

I agree that those are useful measures, and I think profiling should be done, but there are potential terrorists who don't fit the profile.

 

<blink><blink>....
Ooookayyyy... that is beyond my imagination. I haven't seen something even close to this not even in films. You guys have taken security and anti-terrorism measures onto a whole new level.

I think once I saw that applied in Greece too, I would consider it very seriously to move to Africa. I am really concerned about militaristic practices in security. I don't need to worry too much though. Greece resembles more to Bulgaria than any other developed European country. It will be decades until we reach the point to take the security of the borders seriously.

No offence towards any Bulgarian forum member meant.

Given the current spat of Grecian bombers I have to wonder if the laxity will last that long. Any government that doesn't take something like that seriously isn't going to last. I suppose it is inevitable, every major country (US included) has malcontents willing to go to extremes, such as the Oklahoma City bombing.

Seriously though, I have to wonder if you get the same news I do. There is a consistent concerted effort to to anything to hurt the west, such as the reasonably large number of bombs from Yemen just under a month ago. This wasn't aimed directly at the United States, just transport air liners in general. Fortunately most of these guys are idiots. I suspect a Darwinian aspect, if you have any brains you follow more productive paths to instigate change, you don't build bombs. You most especially don't make yourself into one.

While I don't agree with everything my country does, there is a war going on, outside Afghanistan and Iraq. The only reason Greece hasn't been heavily targeted is there is no propaganda value to it. Your country is mostly Christian too, last I heard, so you are also a viable target.

It is interesting that the TWA has finally seemed to hit a thresh hold where people are starting to declare enough!.