I have never seen a breaker box with any kind of organization. I couldn't please anybody that OCD, anyway. I'm sure not going to re-organize yours so I can run 2 wires for new appliances. If a breaker pops, it shows because the handle moves. You want a map of all the breakers you don't have any problems with? You label them. It's not my house.

I have. I do it every time!

I've had inspectors come in to officially sign off on rework jobs I have done for people only to have the inspectors first comment to be that clearly the work was not done by typical contractor electricians being it was too neat, clean and organized plus they couldn't find a single code violation or oversight anywhere. Everything was done to or above present code standards and stood out as a glaring anomaly by what they normally deal with every day!

 

Unfortunately that's what things are coming to in every construction project.

I don't think it will be too long before everyone will be wanting some outside independent agency overseeing things who has been given the authority to hire and fire at will on a job site being in control will be standard procedure just to get anything done right and legally being it already clear way too many contractors and the like are quite content to lie and cheat at all levels if they think they can get away with it.

I already see with that school project that if all it took to get the project done right was a 5% fee to have someone independently overseeing things who would review everything as it was being done and knock heads together when it was being done wrong was in control they would have been money ahead.

I don't think it is outrageous that there should be some independent party to oversee the general contractor with the lowest bid. I wouldn't trust that guy with coffee money.

My argument at the town hall meeting was that the lowest bidder WAS going to oversee all of the subcontractors and the quality of their work. We (the township) will only have ourselves to blame if we believe that is a win/win situation at the beginning of the project.

The cost of an error or shortcut could bankrupt the township to correct it. No way on my watch. Not now, not 50-years ago (when you believe quality and work ethic existed).

 

Beenthere did the wiring in our house; sad to say it isnt very organized either.

 

I'm working on building a new house and my plan for the new wiring is to have one main 200 map primary panel and 2 - 3 sub panels spread out over the house, basement and garage areas just to save wire and make things simpler.
Figuring the kitchen/dinning room area will have one centrally located easy access panel just for convenience since kitchen related breakers seem to get tripped the most. Then a similar sub panel system for the garage for similar reasons.
Just by doing that given where the main panel power comes in I can save a few hundred feet of 12 ga wire pulling to each location. I'd rather pull one 2 - 3 or 4 - 3 line 50 feet to a subpanel then a dozen plus 12 ga lines each that far all ending in a single over stuffed 40 circuit main panel.

I'm not criticizing the use of sub panels. I think they're a great idea. But they should be SUBpanels. As in, fed from a breaker in the main panel. My "sub" panels are fed from the transformer pole.

 

Yes that is what I mean. I am the extreme at both ends. But a true OCD has to have EVERYTHING organized and put away. There are only a few things that bother me when not organized. My desk is usually a mess and my drawers are a mess. A true OCD would never allow that.

Yep my willingness to be a slob beats my OCD every day!

As with you I am very fastidious on the functionality and quality of my work but cleaning up unless absolutely necessary is largely seen as a huge waste of my time and energy.

 

I'm not criticizing the use of sub panels. I think they're a great idea. But they should be SUBpanels. As in, fed from a breaker in the main panel. My "sub" panels are fed from the transformer pole.

I follow. And yes they will be real sub panels where each one is fed off the primary main panel but a proper breaker of its own so if some major wiring in that sub panel needs doing it and everything fed from it can be shut down without having to shut the whole place down.

And yes I too have came across old houses, sheds and shops wired as you say. Every one was largely a independent primary feed point with no relation to any other panel or fuse box beyond sharing the same external power source which either had a fuse or breaker or no over current protection capable of supplying current way beyond what any of the independent panels or fuse boxes supply lines were ever capable of taking down even in a line to line dead short.

The last one I ran into a buddies place where I updated his 1950's farmer fred engineered collection of salvaged fuse boxes over to a brand new and properly installed 200 amp primary service panel. Several of the old fuse boxes were set up just as yours were where even when what looked like master disconnect fuse set in the largest panel was pulled on the main floor box two other smaller fuse boxes in the basement (water heater and well pump) were fed from above it (the actual main 2 ga 3 wire feeder line had been split open and hand spliced into by wrapping the two fuse box feed lines 10 and 12 ga around each conductor several times then just taped over) stayed live until the master service feeder disconnect on the meter box outside half way across the yard was pulled.

I really wish I had taken a picture of that just as proof of how bad some of these old DIY electrical add on jobs were.

 

I definitely believe that some responsibility must lie with the Architect, or at least should be verified, if so.

I think a lot of the architectural issues come from young inexperienced people who rely too much on what some computer drafting program tells them and not any level of personal hands on training from seasoned and experienced mentors in the field like in the old days I have been told where the draftsmen of a project spent a huge amount of time on site double checking that what they designed was actually doable and being done right and if not making sure proper documented rework was carried out.

My Ex was that way. Super CAD person but had a huge disconnect with reality between what she drew and what her computer said Vs what actually was doable or should be done and was proper design in reality.
When we first started our new house project together within the first week of her spare time she had the whole house drawn and rendered in near lifelike full 3D fly through down to the placement of the light switches and electrical outlets!

The problem was what her and her computer specs spit out for details were totally unrealistic (and outrageously expensive) in so many ways it was scary.
That and she apparently figured that if she could draw a ~3000 square foot house in a week's worth of part time I should be able to build it in a bit more than that plus her overall contributions to the project were done (she draws I build and pay for) so it was my responsibility to carry on with the project from that point.

Her attitude about hands on was largely what I think way too many architects have now. They draw it and think shouldn't have to change anything from their design let alone see or visit the site until everything is done and they can put their stamp of approval on it while their brass plaque with their name and acknowledgement of architectural accomplishment gets ceremoniously hung on the main entrance wall.

 

Now I realise why the expression SNAFU originated in the U.S.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snafu

The entomology is with the US military in WWII.

 

1950's farmer Fred engineered collection of salvaged fuse boxes

One side of my family came from Kentucky.
I know what Kentucky Engineering is.
Yay, sub panels!

Even here in Florida, I have corrected as many as 16 code violations in one house.
"Permanent" extension cords, open splices in the attic, Romex in sunlight, wrong size circuit breaker, outlets with no bond wire, that kind of stuff.

 

One side of my family came from Kentucky.
I know what Kentucky Engineering is.
Yay, sub panels!

Even here in Florida, I have corrected as many as 16 code violations in one house.
"Permanent" extension cords, open splices in the attic, Romex in sunlight, wrong size circuit breaker, outlets with no bond wire, that kind of stuff.

You just described my buddies house wiring.

14 ga is good for 30 amps if it's real short right? It must be because it obviously powered the dryer 10 feet away from the one fuse box for 30 years! (The plastic had been slow cooked to the consistency of bakelite. Not heat discolored or anything. Just brittle hard. )

Also that one kitchen outlet that was direct tapped into one side of the 50 amp feedline to the stove was so handy for those family get togethers where they had to run up to four 1500 watt crock pots and pan cookers off one outlet because plugging them into any other kitchen outlet took out half the house since one 15 amp circuit literally did power the whole kitchen plus half the house.

I don't count code violations. I just fix crap and move on. Plus my public school counting skills ain't so good past 10 anyways.

 

They remodeled the kitchen some time back. They put the refrigerator , garbage disposal and under cabinet nights, kitchen outlets each on their own breaker. Still not sure why they did that and not sort out the mess that was already there.

Well I can tell you this much. Kitchen counter space is to be supported by no less than two 20 amp outlets and each must be on a 20 amp GFIC breaker. So no less than two 20 amp service GFIC breakers for kitchen counter space.

Been ripping nob and tube out room by room in this old house. Day by day and wire by wire.

Ron

 

My kids house wiring scares me. The house was built during that bad time in the 70's when aluminum wiring was used. They asked me to fix a few outlets and I discovered the previous owners wired the basement themselves as they finished it.

What a mess. Found a four wire junction hanging in the drop ceiling when the garage light stopped working. Replaced the twisted quad junctions with alumicon connectors to fix that. Also found the switch for the garage light was wired from lamp to switch with a two wire ( plus ground) cable so the black hot is switched and returned on the white wire. Have to leave that as much as it irks me.

Found a cu only outlet that needed to be wiggled just right to get the dish washer to work. Replaced with the proper outlet but it still scares me.

Hard to find cu-alm switches and receptacles but that is all I will use there, even if the color is off.

 

A house looks a lot different to the rough-in electrician: there are no walls and an economically sensible path can end up very offensive to an engineer.

 

A house looks a lot different to the rough-in electrician: there are no walls and an economically sensible path can end up very offensive to an engineer.

Years ago I used to do wiring jobs for a guy who bought old houses around the area and fixed them up for either rental or resale. Problem was he liked doing the carpentry and finish work but not electrical so every job he had for me was in a near finished house that had basically little to no wiring other than a temporary feeder point (a single 4 plex output on 1 or 2 15 - 20 amp breakers at best) most construction projects get at the main service point.

I came to hate working on his stuff fast. He was cheap and insisted on using recycled junk everywhere even when he knew full well that the electrical inspector was going to reject it later but still figured the 1 in 20+ chance he might slip a old crap electrical box or salvaged switch or outlet or length of wire past him was worth it.

 

I don't count code violations.

What I call them doesn't really matter much. It would mean the same and arrive at the same number if I just called them, "screw-ups".
The NEC is mostly about safety. I like it. I don't have to put up with fire hazards if the NEC calls something, "illegal".

I usta have a boss who kept asking me if I could install 60 amp lines cheaper.
What? A double wide circuit breaker, a long piece of 6-2-g, and a disconnect box. Which one could I do cheaper?
I was already doing the whole drop for less than the price a real electrician charges for a house call, and he was still trying to save $5 on a $3000 job.
I just kept repeating, "There is no way you will ever hire me to install a fire hazard." No matter how much you pay me, no matter how much you complain, I will never install a fire hazard!

 

My kids house wiring scares me. The house was built during that bad time in the 70's when aluminum wiring was used. They asked me to fix a few outlets and I discovered the previous owners wired the basement themselves as they finished it.

What a mess. Found a four wire junction hanging in the drop ceiling when the garage light stopped working. Replaced the twisted quad junctions with alumicon connectors to fix that. Also found the switch for the garage light was wired from lamp to switch with a two wire ( plus ground) cable so the black hot is switched and returned on the white wire. Have to leave that as much as it irks me.

Found a cu only outlet that needed to be wiggled just right to get the dish washer to work. Replaced with the proper outlet but it still scares me.

Hard to find cu-alm switches and receptacles but that is all I will use there, even if the color is off.

When a complete re-due like my house is in order, living there is not an option. Cleaning the house out to storage and live somewhere else is my only option or sell as is and take a hit. I've already done Plumbing, Bath remodel, kitchen demo redo, living room, new sprinkling system and the roof removal and replace the front shingles ( asbestos fiber ) the back has 3 layers I'll let them do it. At this point anyone can get a loan, but I don't want to put to much into it because I don't like the location or I would do it and stay.

kv

Edit: Oh, and my friend a Master Electrician came to look at the loads in the house and said from the pole to the outlets I can't believe what was done here?

Edit:Edit: However, because I insisted we live within a Mile of work, both I and my wife we've saved at least average 30k in the last 12 years gas expense not including wear and tear on the vehicle. Maybe I could justify the expense until I sell as a creature comfort. Be nice to run an air-compressor from the Garage.