Natural immunity is being ignored/dismissed because there is no proof. A test takes time and costs a lot.
A vaccine has a paper trail and soon we will have a passport that shows proof.

The antivaxxers who are protesting are blocked from doing almost everything by the mandates.
Vaccinations, masks and social distancing are a proven way to block the virus. "Democratic Rights" do not.

This is not a antivaxxer position from me. Other countries accept recovery from the virus when issuing 'vaccine passports'.
A person that's been treated for COVID-19 has a paper trail that's a lot more solid evidence than a untraceable paper card issued as a reminder for your next shot.

I would strongly recommend vaccination (vaccination is beneficial even for people with natural immunity) for all because it's safer and more predictable but it's simply a current Rational basis policy (that I agree with but not dogmatically) instead of an absolute medical requirement to only accept vaccination as proof of immunity in the US.


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34592838/
A Systematic Review of the Protective Effect of Prior SARS-CoV-2 Infection on Repeat Infection

Abstract
We systematically reviewed studies to estimate the risk of SARS-CoV-2 reinfection among those previously infected with SARS-CoV-2. For this systematic review, we searched scientific publications on PubMed and MedRxiv, a pre-print server, through August 18, 2021. Eligible studies were retrieved on August 18, 2021. The following search term was used on PubMed: (((“Cohort Studies”[Majr]) AND (“COVID-19”[Mesh] OR “SARS-CoV-2”[Mesh])) OR “Reinfection”[Majr]) OR “Reinfection”[Mesh]. The following search term was used on MedRxiv: “Cohort Studies” AND “COVID-19” OR “SARS-CoV-2” AND “Reinfection”. The search terms were broad to encompass all applicable studies. There were no restrictions on the date of publication. Studies that did not describe cohorts with estimates of the risk of SARS-CoV-2 reinfection among those with previous infection were excluded. Studies that included vaccinated participants were either excluded or limited to sub-groups of non-vaccinated individuals. To identify relevant studies with appropriate control groups, we developed the following criteria for studies to be included in the systematic analysis: (1) baseline polymerase chain reaction (PCR) testing, (2) a uninfected comparison group, (3) longitudinal follow-up, (4) a cohort of human participants, i.e. not a case report or case series, and (5) outcome determined by PCR. The review was conducted following PRISMA guidelines. We assessed for selection, information, and analysis bias, per PRISMA guidelines. We identified 1,392 reports. Of those, 10 studies were eligible for our systematic review. The weighted average risk reduction against reinfection was 90.4% with a standard deviation of 7.7% (p-value: <0.01). Protection against SARS-CoV-2 reinfection was observed for up to 10 months. Studies had potential information, selection, and analysis biases. The protective effect of prior SARS-CoV-2 infection on re-infection is high and similar to the protective effect of vaccination. More research is needed to characterize the duration of protection and the impact of different SARS-CoV-2 variants.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56522408
Covid passports: How do they work around the world?

EU
The certificate can be issued if someone has been vaccinated, recently had a negative Covid test or recently recovered from the virus.

France
In order to obtain the pass, people must have proof they are fully vaccinated, recently tested negative or recently recovered from the virus.

Israel
The green pass system will only allow those over the age of 12 who are vaccinated, recovered from Covid-19 or who present a negative test result to attend large events and enter certain public spaces, the Times of Israel reports. The new pass will come into effect from 29 July.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...uses-give-hints-to-covid-s-origins/ar-AAPwqmZ

Virus experts are buzzing about the discovery. Some suspect that these SARS-CoV-2-like viruses may already be infecting people from time to time, causing only mild and limited outbreaks. But under the right circumstances, the pathogens could give rise to a Covid-19-like pandemic, they say.

The findings also have significant implications for the charged debate over Covid’s origins, experts say. Some people have speculated that SARS-CoV-2’s impressive ability to infect human cells could not have evolved through a natural spillover from an animal. But the new findings seem to suggest otherwise.

“That really puts to bed any notion that this virus had to have been concocted, or somehow manipulated in a lab, to be so good at infecting humans,” said Michael Worobey, a University of Arizona virologist who was not involved in the work.

 

I read some material recently posted by doctors that are being threatened
with loosing their jobs if they refuse to be vaccinated. They claimed that 85%
of front line medical staff have been infected with Covid and recovered.
The doctors also claim that people who have recovered and then are
vaccinated have a much higher rate of adverse reactions to the vaccine.
I wish I had saved the links so I could post them.
When doctors and nurses working on the front line with Covid patients don't
want the vaccine I think that makes a strong statement that should not be
ignored.

 

The fact that they already have an immune system ready to attack the new vaccination sounds like a pretty good reason to not want another vaccination, especially if it is not needed. Note: I think that is why the second vaccination in a series is often more stressful than the first.

Still, that might not be the reason why so many medical professionals are quitting their jobs or not getting vaccinated. In California a registered nurse with a few years on the job makes a whole lot more money than a new hire, even though the new hire my have extensive experience. Why are they avoiding the vaccinations if the vaccination is so important?

Unfortunately, these rules are being made by administrators (or elected officials) who are badly affected by group-think and think they are doing the right thing by insisting that only vaccinations can provide a solution (Thank you Dr. Fauci).

 

Legally and medically, in a medical emergency, mandated vaccination is easily defensible for medical professionals even if there is some slight increased risk because they need high levels of ‘neutralizing’ antibodies to block the virus from entering cells when in close contact with known virus hosts to prevent them from being carriers to the critically ill. The vast majority of actual doctors and nurse-practitioners (my sister is a NP) are already vaccinated. A few medical systems have decided to accept prior infection instead of vaccination to avoid losing critical personal but not many.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/n...mmunity-vaccine-mandate-exemption/8262491002/

https://www.beckershospitalreview.c...ems-mandating-vaccines-for-workersjune17.html

In Oregon "State law prohibits mandatory vaccination as a requirement of employment for certain employees, including hospital workers.

 

https://fortune.com/2021/10/13/new-us-covid-cases-by-state/

Community transmission of COVID remains high in 89.2% of American counties, according to current data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Despite that, the latest wave, driven by the highly contagious and completely dominant Delta variant, appears to have crested, with new cases, hospitalizations, and deaths due to the virus all in decline from levels two weeks ago. (It’s estimated that the Delta variant accounts for 99.9% of U.S. cases.)


Cases and hospitalizations have decreased by roughly 20% in that period, while deaths due to the virus are down 4%, according to New York Times data from Oct. 12. States hit hardest by the Delta variant—especially those with lower vaccination rates in the South—continued to see large decreases in new cases, led by Alabama with a 61.9% decline from two weeks ago. Florida, Hawaii, Mississippi, Tennessee, South Carolina, and South Dakota all saw a greater than 40% decline in new coronavirus cases in that period.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/9...s-had-been-vaccinated-study-finds-11634223097

Roughly 90,000 deaths from the coronavirus-borne illness COVID-19 among U.S. adults were preventable and could have been avoided if more of those people had gotten vaccinated when vaccines became available in the spring, a new study has found.

The study conducted by the Peterson Center on Healthcare and the Kaiser Family Foundation and reported in the Washington Post looked at deaths of U.S. adults from June to September, when vaccines were free and widely available to the general public.
...
The grim news underlines the importance for unvaccinated people to get their shots, as they currently account for most new cases, hospitalizations and deaths. Vaccines have proved safe and highly effective at preventing severe illness and death.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/top-v...-predicts-6-months-of-covid-quiet-for-israel/

Deaths have fallen from a seven-day average of 25 a month ago to 13 now, and the number of active cases, 25,127, is less than a third of what it was in mid-September.

Dr. Yael Paran, deputy head of epidemiology at Tel Aviv Sourasky Medical Center, shared Abulafia-Lapid’s optimism that the fourth wave is over and Delta vanquished.

“I think we’re seeing the end of the fourth surge, and it’s the result of three million taking a booster,” she said, adding: “This is a decrease that we believe will continue.”

She said that the effect of the boosters has been gradual, and is now convincing. “We saw the progression each time that boosters were offered to a new age group,” she said. “Two to three weeks later the number of infections dropped, and then the number of hospitalizations decreased.”

Real world evidence that vaccine boosters work.

 

Legally and medically, in a medical emergency, mandated vaccination is easily defensible for medical professionals even if there is some slight increased risk because they need high levels of ‘neutralizing’ antibodies to block the virus from entering cells when in close contact with known virus hosts to prevent them from being carriers to the critically ill.

Well that is true outlets like CNN most definitely do seem to want you to believe that there IS an actual ongoing emergency. (Yes...and it's only getting worse folks!™️) The truth is the real storm has long since passed. And yet according to them we are undeniably facing a potential armageddon. (Total NONSENSE!)

Meanwhile being that Covid deaths are almost unheard of nowadays the rest of us have been going about our days as usual actually. Covid is pretty much just another flu strain at this point. (Albeit perhaps more deadly towards some than others.)

Those ‘neutralizing’ antibodies by the way don't exactly act instantaneously. So the vaccines may indeed afford some protection but nonetheless are NOT yet proven to be an absolutely reliable way to prevent transmission to the critically ill either. When in doubt, mask up, sanitize, and of course be sure that ALL interactions with at-risk people are conducted in well-ventilated areas.

 

Well, not sure how mandatory vaccination can be defended here - making staff work with improper PPE, denying airborne transmission until August 2021 (this our area), threatening dismissal for refusing what was unsafe work. Causing multiple deaths and outbreaks in healthcare facilities because of what I listed above. Who was responsible for that?

I see a lot of deflection going on. If there are still outbreaks in the hospitals - who will be blamed for those? (BTW there are right now a few despite very high vaccination rate across the province)

And as I already stated, everyone who could retire early, did. So hospitals are very short staffed. People got tired of the ongoing bull***, COVID was the straw that broke the back. Cant get an x-ray, cant have surgery. It is not all about the nurses.

 

Well, not sure how mandatory vaccination can be defended here - making staff work with improper PPE, denying airborne transmission until August 2021 (this our area), threatening dismissal for refusing what was unsafe work. Causing multiple deaths and outbreaks in healthcare facilities because of what I listed above. Who was responsible for that?


I see a lot of deflection going on. If there are still outbreaks in the hospitals - who will be blamed for those? (BTW there are right now a few despite very high vaccination rate across the province)


And as I already stated, everyone who could retire early, did. So hospitals are very short staffed. People got tired of the ongoing bullshit, COVID was the straw that broke the back. Cant get an x-ray, cant have surgery. It is not all about the nurses.

Not to mention that it was the HOSPITALS letting go of staff early on in the pandemic. They also restricted many specialists from performing their services at various times during the pandemic for no obvious reason apparently. Nonessential procedure I suppose? It's all still a bit of a mess quite honestly. Nobody really wants to work at a place like that...

 

Not to mention that it was the HOSPITALS letting go of staff early on in the pandemic. They also restricted many specialists from performing their services at various times during the pandemic for no obvious reason apparently. Nonessential procedure I suppose? It's all still a bit of a mess quite honestly. Nobody really wants to work at a place like that...

No.

This just today https://bc.ctvnews.ca/dozens-dead-h...ceal-b-c-hospital-outbreak-findings-1.5624106

At least someone is looking for information. Seeing this from the inside out as it happens is soul crashing. Some actions are criminal, but most is just due to the miracle of "systemic failure" - when in trouble, add a manager and hire a consultant. Do not talk to the people on the front lines. This is apparently "risk averse" behavior because then no one is at fault? Find a scape goat. Case closed.

 

Remember according to the Supreme Court you have the right to swing your fist unless someone's nose is in the way. As someone who will probably die if I catch this virus, I would really like to be safe out in the world when I dare venture out. My desire to live should supersede your right to refuse vaccines, IMHO. There are many people who do not believe in the social contract. But you ignore it at your own risk. Risking being ostracized and shunned as someone whom people need to avoid. That does not make them wrong but it does come with consequences. Where it would go overboard in my opinion is if you had to wear a tag or something declaring that you were not vaccinated. But a proof of vaccination before you can enter a business seems entirely reasonable to me. As they are doing nothing but protecting their other customers. If there were exceptions made then you would have a right to complain to the management.

The Texas governor would rather stick his head in the sand and pretend that COVID did not exist, making a law that businesses did not have to have proof of vaccination for them to serve you. This is the attitude the rest of us are fighting. Certain jobs do come with risk of contagion and the spreading of this virus. Requiring a vaccination for that is entirely reasonable.

 

We just had Thanksgiving in Canada and the government ran ads online suggesting that you not invite you unvaccinated relatives over.

Question came up a few times - what to do with the children? They are unvaccinated? Do you kick them out?

This is starting to look like the AIDS in the 80s.

 

Remember according to the Supreme Court you have the right to swing your fist unless someone's nose is in the way. As someone who will probably die if I catch this virus, I would really like to be safe out in the world when I dare venture out. My desire to live should supersede your right to refuse vaccines, IMHO. There are many people who do not believe in the social contract. But you ignore it at your own risk. Risking being ostracized and shunned as someone whom people need to avoid. That does not make them wrong but it does come with consequences. Where it would go overboard in my opinion is if you had to wear a tag or something declaring that you were not vaccinated. But a proof of vaccination before you can enter a business seems entirely reasonable to me. As they are doing nothing but protecting their other customers. If there were exceptions made then you would have a right to complain to the management.


The Texas governor would rather stick his head in the sand and pretend that COVID did not exist, making a law that businesses did not have to have proof of vaccination for them to serve you. This is the attitude the rest of us are fighting. Certain jobs do come with risk of contagion and the spreading of this virus. Requiring a vaccination for that is entirely reasonable.

There is also an unwritten rule that if you walk into a swing of a bat at the old ball field...that batter is by NO means responsible for your injuries! Look you are free to protect yourself from Covid however you'd like. I encourage people to do so. But NO ONE else is responsible for YOUR health. That is YOUR job my friend!

And moreover insisting that people should not have the right to choose or even implying that they are somehow "second-class" citizens for not doing so is frankly preposterous. The efficacy and safety of the vaccines is still very much in question.

You are free to believe whatever you want about the vaccines. But so is everybody else. People can decide for themselves what treatments they want to receive. I opted to take the vaccine and so personally I do feel adequately protected. Others may choose to do otherwise. That is most certainly their right.

 

I read some material recently posted by doctors that are being threatened
with loosing their jobs if they refuse to be vaccinated. They claimed that 85%
of front line medical staff have been infected with Covid and recovered.
The doctors also claim that people who have recovered and then are
vaccinated have a much higher rate of adverse reactions to the vaccine.
I wish I had saved the links so I could post them.
When doctors and nurses working on the front line with Covid patients don't
want the vaccine I think that makes a strong statement that should not be
ignored.

Hey mate - Could you have a look for that? Maybe through your internet history? Remember that the burden of proof always lies with the person making the claim

I can say that in Australia that is not how it happened, as frontline medical workers were in the first group that could be vaccinated
https://www.health.gov.au/resources...-19-vaccination-phase-1a-rollout-presentation

 

https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Porta...021/NAV21225.txt?ver=EfkG2psijI2X0IEKSId_5w==

2.b. To date, over 98 percent of active duty U.S. Navy service members have
met their readiness responsibility by completing or initiating a COVID-19
vaccination series. We applaud your commitment to ensuring the continued
readiness of our worldwide deployable Navy. Tragically, there have been 164
deaths within the Navy family due to COVID-19, far exceeding the combined
total of all other health or mishap related injuries and deaths over the same
time period. 144 of these were not immunized and 20 had an undisclosed
immunization status.

7.e.(2). Within 30 days of a Navy service member refusing the vaccine,
reporting seniors shall issue a Special Fitness Report/Evaluation per
MILPERSMAN 1610-015 and BUPERSINST 1610.10E. In addition to documenting
failure to comply with individual medical readiness responsibilities, the
report shall document other facts as appropriate, including any misconduct
related to UCMJ Art. 92.

 

https://fortune.com/2021/10/13/new-us-covid-cases-by-state/


https://www.marketwatch.com/story/9...s-had-been-vaccinated-study-finds-11634223097

You don't seem to get the same news as one of your other home boys, someone from where your from TX. I don't even know who to believe any more. He says it's over but there are states that have a hard time giving a standard of care due to covid and turning patients a way.

 

You can judge for yourself using the 'paper of record'.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html

• Reports of new cases continue to trend steadily downward. Around 86,000 cases are being identified each day, down from more than 160,000 daily at the beginning of September.
• While most of the country is rebounding from the summer case surge, trouble spots remain. Colorado, Vermont and Michigan are among a handful of states seeing sustained case growth.
• Alaska continues to lead the country in recent cases per capita, though case levels have started to decline in recent days. Anchorage, the state’s largest city, recently approved a mask mandate after heated debate.
• The situation continues to improve in the South, the region that suffered the worst this summer. Florida now has one of the lowest average daily case rates in the country.
• Vaccination rates vary widely by state. Seventy percent of residents are fully vaccinated in Vermont, Connecticut and Rhode Island. In West Virginia, 41 percent of people are fully vaccinated.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailycases|New_case|select

 

As a side note - Can we all agree to find some supporting data for the claims that we make on here? After all the burden of proof always lies with the person who is making the claim.

The numbers in the USA seem to be going down - However, I'd expect to see that it might go up a little over the next few months, as you are heading into flu season (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/flu-season.htm).

The good thing is that it shouldn't be as bad as last year because of vaccination rates and the people who have recovered from Covid-19 are a lot higher.

 

As a side note - Can we all agree to find some supporting data for the claims that we make on here? After all the burden of proof always lies with the person who is making the claim.

The numbers in the USA seem to be going down - However, I'd expect to see that it might go up a little over the next few months, as you are heading into flu season (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/flu-season.htm).

The good thing is that it shouldn't be as bad as last year because of vaccination rates and the people who have recovered from Covid-19 are a lot higher.

The unvaccinated case candle has been burning bright with Delta in the USA for a while so our low hanging 'fruit' has been depleted. I would say to counties with low rates of total natural and vaccine immunity to buckle up, it's likely to be a bumpy ride ahead for them unless shots are in arms quickly.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/13/rus...ly-covid-death-toll-but-resists-lockdown.html

Russia has hit a grim new record in its Covid-19 pandemic, with the number of daily deaths caused by the virus hitting a new high for the second day in a row.

On Wednesday, Russia reported 28,717 new Covid cases and 984 deaths caused by the virus, marking the second day in a row that the country has recorded a record-high number of daily fatalities.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51235105