So most of you just choose to ignore the fact that vaccination does not actually stop the chain of transmission?

Vaccinated, once infected with delta have been shown to be as infectious. Benefits are - infection is cleared faster once it becomes systemic (spreads past upper respiratory tract). So clearly much of the benefit of getting vaccinated is for the individual.

We don't ignore it.

With the original virus, vaccination did stop the chain of transmission by quickly neutralizing the virus with active antibodies for about 6 months but immunity is more than antibodies. Vaccination won't 'stop' Delta transmission but it reduces with other countermeasures the Rt to below 1 to curb the spread of the virus into a manageable condition instead of a exponential explosion of new cases.

https://epiforecasts.io/covid/posts/national/united-states/
https://delphi.cmu.edu/covidcast/summary/?date=20211103

 

"The protected need to be protected from the unprotected by forcing the unprotected to use the protection that doesn't protect the protected."

Don't use that card.

Spoiler

[/quote]

 

Speaking (writing) about anti-vaxers, there seems to be a lot of Scrooge-think.
“If they would rather die,” said Scrooge, “they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.”

Something for those who do not consider themselves to be bigots.

@shortbus , you amuse me

 

Why, oh why, doesn’t the forum allow ignoring a thread???

 

Hi panic mode.
Not accusing you of hiding anything.
Forget the non-vax group, if you as an individual decide not be vaccinated, that I understand and respect.

What the non-vax group is doing is standing back and watching the vaccinated group of individuals take a personal potential risk in order to try to get society back to what we call normal, for themselves and for you.

An analogy would be a dozen survivors in a lifeboat, 6 want to row and make an effort to save everyone, while the other 6 just want to sit back and wait and see how turns out.

E

 

Hi panic mode.
Not accusing you of hiding anything.
Forget the non-vax group, if you as an individual decide not be vaccinated, that I understand and respect.

What the non-vax group is doing is standing back and watching the vaccinated group of individuals take a personal potential risk in order to try to get society back to what we call normal, for themselves and for you.

An analogy would be a dozen survivors in a lifeboat, 6 want to row and make an effort to save everyone, while the other 6 just want to sit back and wait and see how turns out.

E

On my boat the other 6 would be swimming.

 

if it is your boat - do that
otherwise announce that you are about to split the boat right through the middle, and show them you mean it. if the rest does not agree, you may be the one swimming

 

Don't use that card.

Spoiler

undefined

why not?

 

Don't use that card.

Spoiler

View attachment 252264

[/QUOTE]

You do know what that card signifies!?

 

An analogy would be a dozen survivors in a lifeboat, 6 want to row and make an effort to save everyone, while the other 6 just want to sit back and wait and see how turns out.

not quite...

An analogy would be that the boat is 20feet from the dock....

 

You do know what that card signifies!?

nope, did not bother to check it out... not into card games

 

You do know what that card signifies!?

 

Public health (at least here) is stating that you cannot get immunity the old fashined way, it does not count. Or did you miss that memo? Pandemic will not end until everyone is enrolled into the vaccination plan.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7044e1.htm?s_cid=mm7044e1_w

Previous infection with SARS-CoV-2 (the virus that causes COVID-19) or COVID-19 vaccination can provide immunity and protection from subsequent SARS-CoV-2 infection and illness. CDC used data from the VISION Network* to examine hospitalizations in adults with COVID-19–like illness and compared the odds of receiving a positive SARS-CoV-2 test result, and thus having laboratory-confirmed COVID-19, between unvaccinated patients with a previous SARS-CoV-2 infection occurring 90–179 days before COVID-19–like illness hospitalization, and patients who were fully vaccinated with an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine 90–179 days before hospitalization with no previous documented SARS-CoV-2 infection. Hospitalized adults aged ≥18 years with COVID-19–like illness were included if they had received testing at least twice: once associated with a COVID-19–like illness hospitalization during January–September 2021 and at least once earlier (since February 1, 2020, and ≥14 days before that hospitalization). Among COVID-19–like illness hospitalizations in persons whose previous infection or vaccination occurred 90–179 days earlier, the odds of laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 (adjusted for sociodemographic and health characteristics) among unvaccinated, previously infected adults were higher than the odds among fully vaccinated recipients of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine with no previous documented infection (adjusted odds ratio [aOR] = 5.49; 95% confidence interval [CI] = 2.75–10.99). These findings suggest that among hospitalized adults with COVID-19–like illness whose previous infection or vaccination occurred 90–179 days earlier, vaccine-induced immunity was more protective than infection-induced immunity against laboratory-confirmed COVID-19. All eligible persons should be vaccinated against COVID-19 as soon as possible, including unvaccinated persons previously infected with SARS-CoV-2.

In this multistate analysis of hospitalizations for COVID-19–like illness among adults aged ≥18 years during January–September 2021 whose previous infection or vaccination occurred 90–179 days earlier, the adjusted odds of laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 were higher among unvaccinated and previously infected patients than among those who were fully vaccinated with 2 doses of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine without previous documentation of a SARS-CoV-2 infection. Secondary analyses that did not adjust for time since infection or vaccination or adjusted time since infection or vaccination differently as well as before and during Delta variant predominance produced similar results. These findings are consistent with evidence that neutralizing antibody titers after receipt of 2 doses of mRNA COVID-19 vaccine are high (5,6); however, these findings differ from those of a retrospective records-based cohort study in Israel,†† which did not find higher protection for vaccinated adults compared with those with previous infection during a period of Delta variant circulation. This variation is possibly related to differences in the outcome of interest and restrictions on the timing of vaccination. The Israeli cohort study assessed any positive SARS-CoV-2 test result, whereas this study examined laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 among hospitalized patients. The Israeli cohort study also only examined vaccinations that had occurred 6 months earlier, so the benefit of more recent vaccination was not examined. This report focused on the early protection from infection-induced and vaccine-induced immunity, though it is possible that estimates could be affected by time. Understanding infection-induced and vaccine-induced immunity over time is important, particularly for future studies to consider.

 

i am trying to have an honest discussion on the topic mentioned in the thread title.
this means discussing efficacy, as well as possible side effects of the current treatments, any possible alternative treatments and of course government role such as mandates. also would like to see what the vaccination goals really are as the goal posts are moving all the time and those pushing mandates are involved in lying and dirty dealings.

i asked questions like what is wrong if one does not want to be forced to take experimental jab.
why is it acceptable those that put lives and ability to support themselves at risk to help others even after many years of directly helping patients?

to change someone's mind, you need to convince them with an argument. that should not include responses that contain things like "don't use that", "fool", "i want to use mandate to crush those who oppose", "jab them all indiscriminately", "take it and shut up", "don't use that website as a reference", "we are in the same boat but - its got to be my way" etc.

all i was looking for is a civil discussion among colleagues.

the answers i got are along these lines:

1. the herd immunity is the goal but do not question what R0 is or what percentage of population need to be vaccinated is. so it is 100% (cannot say more than 100% or this would be seen as over unity topic). R0 used to used to be 2-3 or some 5.08 according to recent data so vaccination rate of 80% should stop this but it does not. why? don't ask...

2. everyone has to get a vax and keep getting it over and over in ever shorter and shorter intervals - don't ask why.

3. do not even think of other medication. the only thing that is acceptable is vaccine - do not ask why. everything else is officially known as horse dewormer and it is bad for you. no pill or existing drug cocktail is acceptable - it has to be vaccine and nothing else. don't ask...

4. vaccine is safe and effective. do not question why vaccinated people are dying or have complications.
vaccine is so good and effective that everyone vaccinated must be additionally protected (there goes over unity) including all those around them. don't ask why.

5. even those that are non symptomatic, do not interact with others, people that live and work in isolation etc - still they all must be vaccinated - to keep their job. just because...

6. people that are at high risk such as those with other underlying condition, those that are CV19 infected etc do not need to be confined and constantly monitored and cared for. because infected and people at high risk deserve to be out in sunshine, travel and do things while the worthless and stubborn healthy people shall be jabbed or fired and forced to live in isolation - don't ask why.

7. first responders that put their own lives at risk saving lives during first 1.5 years of pandemic were unvaccinated and that was somehow acceptable. but now that they lived through that hell and know the enemy (CV19) they are not allowed to do their job unless they too get an experimental shot. it's not like they know how to protect themselves and others already. fire them all and don't ask why.

8. young people specially kids and athletes have had heart problems but that. don't worry about that....

9. masks are useless and could be more of a problem than a solution. stop asking about that...

10. does not heard immunity means reaching threshold by infecting more people? would that mean that another 1-2 million of US citizens would die? does not that sound like a crazy idea? just shut up already. we do not talk about that look at things from other perspectives...

11. how are infection rates, hospitalization rates and death rates reported? how come every illness and death is COVID? just stop bringing it up already - there are couple of cases that do not fit the narrative and of course those are not Covid related.

etc.

you get the point...

 

i am trying to have an honest discussion on the topic mentioned in the thread title.
this means discussing efficacy, as well as possible side effects of the current treatments, any possible alternative treatments and of course government role such as mandates. also would like to see what the vaccination goals really are as the goal posts are moving all the time and those pushing mandates are involved in lying and dirty dealings.

i asked questions like what is wrong if one does not want to be forced to take experimental jab.
why is it acceptable those that put lives and ability to support themselves at risk to help others even after many years of directly helping patients?

to change someone's mind, you need to convince them with an argument. that should not include responses that contain things like "don't use that", "fool", "i want to use mandate to crush those who oppose", "jab them all indiscriminately", "take it and shut up", "don't use that website as a reference", "we are in the same boat but - its got to be my way" etc.

all i was looking for is a civil discussion among colleagues.

the answers i got are along these lines:

1. the herd immunity is the goal but do not question what R0 is or what percentage of population need to be vaccinated is. so it is 100% (cannot say more than 100% or this would be seen as over unity topic). R0 used to used to be 2-3 or some 5.08 according to recent data so vaccination rate of 80% should stop this but it does not. why? don't ask...

2. everyone has to get a vax and keep getting it over and over in ever shorter and shorter intervals - don't ask why.

3. do not even think of other medication. the only thing that is acceptable is vaccine - do not ask why. everything else is officially known as horse dewormer and it is bad for you. no pill or existing drug cocktail is acceptable - it has to be vaccine and nothing else. don't ask...

4. vaccine is safe and effective. do not question why vaccinated people are dying or have complications.
vaccine is so good and effective that everyone vaccinated must be additionally protected (there goes over unity) including all those around them. don't ask why.

5. even those that are non symptomatic, do not interact with others, people that live and work in isolation etc - still they all must be vaccinated - to keep their job. just because...

6. people that are at high risk such as those with other underlying condition, those that are CV19 infected etc do not need to be confined and constantly monitored and cared for. because infected and people at high risk deserve to be out in sunshine, travel and do things while the worthless and stubborn healthy people shall be jabbed or fired and forced to live in isolation - don't ask why.

7. first responders that put their own lives at risk saving lives during first 1.5 years of pandemic were unvaccinated and that was somehow acceptable. but now that they lived through that hell and know the enemy (CV19) they are not allowed to do their job unless they too get an experimental shot. it's not like they know how to protect themselves and others already. fire them all and don't ask why.

8. young people specially kids and athletes have had heart problems but that. don't worry about that....

9. masks are useless and could be more of a problem than a solution. stop asking about that...

10. does not heard immunity means reaching threshold by infecting more people? would that mean that another 1-2 million of US citizens would die? does not that sound like a crazy idea? just shut up already. we do not talk about that look at things from other perspectives...

11. how are infection rates, hospitalization rates and death rates reported? how come every illness and death is COVID? just stop bringing it up already - there are couple of cases that do not fit the narrative and of course those are not Covid related.

etc.

you get the point...

Don't want to change your mind as it's the same waste of energy trying to change my mind using your responses. You're just a foil to maybe change the mind of a person that 's open to the vaccine before they get sick, are maybe on a death bed and wishing they were vaccinated long ago.

Earlier you used the word dictatorship. A dictatorship is when you're shot dead for refusing the vaccine instead of losing a job. I've served in a few countries there were under a dictators boot, vaccine mandates don't come near to that reality.

 

The 9 vaccines for old diseases and viruses (measles, mumps, polio etc) that are mandatory for school kids are proven to be safe and effective. The new vaccines for covid-19 are also safe and effective but not perfect because they were developed to fight the original Covid-19 virus from China, not the variants from England, India, Brazil, California and the new Delta+ from India. The vaccines work well but need to be tweaked like the flu shot each year until enough people are vaccinated to eliminate the virus. Some religious groups are antivaxers and are bringing those old "eliminated" viruses back.

The news reports the number of new daily Covid-19 cases and saying that 30% are vaccinated people but rarely say how many very ill antivaxers are clogging the hospitals while most vaccinated new cases have minor symptoms or no symptoms and are at home.

Many hospitals are completely full of Covid-19 cases, mostly with unvaccinated people. Singapore is reducing the number of unvaccinated people by charging them for their Covid-19 hospital treatment that could cost $60,000 or more. Then only rich antivaxers will be in their hospitals. Soon other countries will do it.

 

The 9 vaccines for old diseases and viruses (measles, mumps, polio etc) that are mandatory for school kids are proven to be safe and effective. The new vaccines for covid-19 are also safe and effective but not perfect because they were developed to fight the original Covid-19 virus from China, not the variants from England, India, Brazil, California and the new Delta+ from India. The vaccines work well but need to be tweaked like the flu shot each year until enough people are vaccinated to eliminate the virus. Some religious groups are antivaxers and are bringing those old "eliminated" viruses back.

The news reports the number of new daily Covid-19 cases and saying that 30% are vaccinated people but rarely say how many very ill antivaxers are clogging the hospitals while most vaccinated new cases have minor symptoms or no symptoms and are at home.

Many hospitals are completely full of Covid-19 cases, mostly with unvaccinated people. Singapore is reducing the number of unvaccinated people by charging them for their Covid-19 hospital treatment that could cost $60,000 or more. Then only rich antivaxers will be in their hospitals. Soon other countries will do it.

I like this idea. Many are diabetic by choice. I think we should cut off their coverage. There are so many savings to be had. No coverage for anyone who suffers an injury while skiing or performing any kind of sport ans so on and so forth.

 

insurance is something people pay for, it is an investment. cannot just take the money and cut off coverage without compensation.
well you can but there will be lawsuits

 

"diabetic by choice"

Seriously?

 

Type 2 diabetes is almosy completely preventable (9 out 10 cases according to CDC). So yes, it is a choice. I have 2 family members who choice diabetes caused by alcoholism. One is dead now.