i agree with everything else until this part:



i am pretty sure that they know more about than average person does. and they see a lot more cases than any of us do. i respect their choice. and if patients do not trust them or their choices, they are welcome to opt out from being treated by someone they don't trust or go home and take chances with the issue on their own.

as nsaspook like to state - choose wisely

Yes, they have the choice to sit at home and complain about losing a good job over a very low risk injection.

 

Anyone cares to ask "experts" what happens to a healthy immune system once it is subjected to repeat vaccination at 3-4 months intervals? Does the immune system continue to function as it should? Does anyone want to partake in this experiment? I dont.

Current knowledge of immune response is not sufficient to be able to judge what will happen post vaccination or post infection for a virus such as this. Why? They can measure antibodies, but it is only one piece of thw puzzle and not a very important one. I can have mild infection and have a response with barely any antibodies and not be sick. Someone else will have a different reaponse. It is not an all or nothing.

Going around stating that vaccination is better because there is predictable response in terms of antibody production does not guarantee anything as you have not measured full immune system response.

I cannot tell if there is fraud or lying going on, but I have not seen much science behind these events. When science doesnt know or science is not afraid to state that. Except of course I fear science has sold itself to highest bidder.

 

Yes, they have the choice to sit at home and complain about losing a good job over a very low risk injection.

true, so do patients to suffer alone or go to another hospital

 

Hi.
I see posts with phrases like Human Rights', Personal Responsibility'

BUT I don't see the phrase 'Group Responsibility' being used.?

Seem's like every man for himself policy and let the Devil take the hindmost attitude in most of these posts.

E

 

I have never defended mandates. As a matter of fact, I think they're counterproductive in the sense that they tend to alienate a portion of the population. And you're right about collaboration being the solution. But the the main obstacle against collaboration is mistrust. Just look at the Russian case. They were among the first to deploy a vaccine, and right now they're having a record number of deaths. All because they don't trust their government ... and I can't say I blame them for that.

What I do support though, is an intense vaccination campaign. And I also support the right of private corporations to demand their workers get vaccinated if they see it fit. My company, my rules. If they don't like it they can go work somewhere else. I find it silly that some hospital workers complain against vaccination being a requirement to keep their jobs ... they work in the medical industry, and they're saying they don't trust the medical industry...

As someone working in a hospital, i never want to be a "client" again. But that is just me...

 

true, so do patients to suffer alone or go to another hospital

Exactly, patients are the ones with the much higher risks. The question is who bears the primary responsibility for that added risk? Those responsible for mandating a low risk injection to medical providers or those medical providers not getting the low risk injection for some likely nebulous reason of loss of personal freedom they don't actually warrant in a medical emergency.

 

Agreed ... but think about this for a moment: Are medical workers required to wash their hands before interacting with patients? ... what if some of them argue that the soap being used contains antibiotics that they say will affect their well being in unknown ways, and that washing their hands should be a personal choice and not a mandate to be enforced upon them? ... that would be silly, wouldn't it?

not to me... let them have it... it is all about supply and demand.
the only mandate should be to answer honestly about their accreditation and standards followed.

so let them use hobos with voodoo dolls, chanting and tossing chicken bones.... if that is kind of hospital appealing to you and you choose to get treated by, go for it... you HAVE the choice. and you CAN sue them for malpractice if things don't go well. but if you don't like it, feel free to go next door to a hospital practicing medicine the modern way.

the problem is that if you get CV19 shot, and things go wrong for you, you CANNOT sue, you have NO option left - because it is a remedy authorized only for emergency. and there are PLENTY of people that got bad reaction or even died because of it. therefore it is wrong to FORCE people to get the shot. popularize it - do not mandate it.

 

Exactly, patients are the ones with the much higher risks. The question is who bears the primary responsibility for that added risk? Those responsible for mandating a low risk injection to medical providers or those medical providers not getting the low risk injection for some likely nebulous reason of loss of personal freedom they don't actually warrant in a medical emergency.

"Nebulous"? You are aware that health authorities in charge of PPE still view covid as a droplet spread? That it took almost a year for out public health to mandate masks for the public?

 

patients are the ones with the much higher risks. The question is who bears the primary responsibility for that added risk?

they are the ones at the mercy of others and beggars can't be choosers.
if you are so concerned about catching covid make sure to not get it. stay home or get a bubble, fan and air filter...

and if you still get sick, tough it up or stop making others receive medical treatments they do not want.

this is not medieval France and you don't have to get two healthy tooth's removed just to show to afraid emperor how tooth extraction can be safe.

 

"Nebulous"? You are aware that health authorities in charge of PPE still view covid as a droplet spread? That it took almost a year for out public health to mandate masks for the public?

I wasn't talking about covid risk, I was talking about Nebulous claims of loss of freedom. If you're possibility injured in a hospital you lost the freedom to wear pants.

 

they are the ones at the mercy of others and beggars can't be choosers.
if you are so concerned about catching covid make sure to not get it. stay home or get a bubble, fan and air filter...

and if you still get sick, tough it up or stop making others receive medical treatments they do not want.

this is not medieval France and you don't have to get two healthy tooth's removed just to show to afraid emperor how tooth extraction can be safe.

I've been 3X vaccinated and have never stopped working, living or vacationing during this entire sad episode. IMO the paranoia about getting sick is mainly from the unvaxx'd side dreaming up improbable vaccine death sentences and body mutations.

 

Your freedom is not absolute when it has the potential to unnecessarily kill innocent others. Yes, it's an outrageous overstepping of ones freedoms but totally justified in some conditions. It's called self-defense.

no...

self defense is to stay home, maintain distance yourself (ie. cross the street if you see someone without mask), wash your hands frequently, void touching face etc. and get your bubble, fan and filter...until you do all that, you are not using protection.

use it all and then we can talk about what others can do for you.

and your freedoms are not absolute either. so if you dare to attack my freedoms, be prepared to live with consequences.

everything you say and do goes both ways. the only difference is that i am trying to find a compromise and accommodate you but - you are not doing the same for me.

 

no...

self defense is to stay home, cross the street if you see someone without mask, wash your hands frequently, void touching face etc. and get your bubble, fan and filter...until you do all that, you are not using protection.

use it all and then we can talk about what others can do for you.

Why do that when we can use the power of employment and government to enforce responsible health mandates on the unwilling? I have no problems with using the stick on the unvaxx'd to get the damn shot. Those that don't will eventurally get immunity the old fashioned way so I'm for letting the unvaxx'd mingle and get the virus ASAP so this pandemic can end soon.

 

that is dictatorship. using force to achieve the goal just so you don't have to experience the minor inconvenience

 

Why do that when we can use the power of employment and government to enforce responsible health mandates on the unwilling? I have no problems with using the stick on the unvaxx'd to get the damn shot. Those that don't will eventurally get immunity the old fashioned way so I'm for letting the unvaxx'd mingle and get the virus ASAP so this pandemic can end soon.

Public health (at least here) is stating that you cannot get immunity the old fashined way, it does not count. Or did you miss that memo? Pandemic will not end until everyone is enrolled into the vaccination plan.

 

BUT I don't see the phrase 'Group Responsibility' being used.?

open your eyes. there are large groups of people opposing to mandates. i support them.

 

open your eyes. there are large groups of people opposing to mandates. i support them.

In other words, you are looking after number One and using the mandate opposing group as a cover for your own position.?

 

what the heck does that mean? my position was very clear and i was not hiding anything. if there is half a country of hard working people who do not want jab, let them have it, do not fire them, do not lock them up.
if someone has symptoms, quarantine them - even against their will. but do not use experimental medicine on people that do not want to be lab rats.

what is wrong about that?

 

So most of you just choose to ignore the fact that vaccination does not actually stop the chain of transmission?

Vaccinated, once infected with delta have been shown to be as infectious. Benefits are - infection is cleared faster once it becomes systemic (spreads past upper respiratory tract). So clearly much of the benefit of getting vaccinated is for the individual.

 

"The protected need to be protected from the unprotected by forcing the unprotected to use the protection that doesn't protect the protected."