Hello,


I would like to build an ion lifter that runs on a very small amount of power.
Here in the graph in this video presentation it shows it is possible to have an ion craft
function with say ~30000 volts and ~.0001 amps if I am not mistaken that is 3 volts at 1 amp.
In general it is possible for ioncraft to function with extremely low currents and very high voltages.

I would like to be able to fit the power supply on the lifter.

To this end I have looked into micro High Voltage Power Supplies like shown here in the video


I have looked at this model here for instance which according to its data - sheet in its smallest configuration
has a weight of 142 grams and a volume of 70.5 centimeters^3.


I'm wondering if there is a way to basically convert to very high voltages in the 12+ kV range basically without regard to what it will do to the current and weight for less than 100 grams (preferably less than 10 grams).

Im an electronics n00b so I figured it would be easy to convert electricty this way, for instance having the equation V = IR, solve for R and bam plug in a resistor, but that of course wont work because it bleeds off energy in the form of heat.


Edit:

Also input can be low voltage AC

 

Hello,


I would like to build an ion lifter that runs on a very small amount of power.
Here in the graph in this video presentation it shows it is possible to have an ion craft
function with say ~30000 volts and ~.0001 amps if I am not mistaken that is 3 volts at 1 amp.
In general it is possible for ioncraft to function with extremely low currents and very high voltages.

I would like to be able to fit the power supply on the lifter.

To this end I have looked into micro High Voltage Power Supplies like shown here in the video


I have looked at this model here for instance which according to its data - sheet in its smallest configuration
has a weight of 142 grams and a volume of 70.5 centimeters^3.


I'm wondering if there is a way to basically convert to very high voltages in the 12+ kV range basically without regard to what it will do to the current and weight for less than 100 grams (preferably less than 10 grams).

Im an electronics n00b so I figured it would be easy to convert electricty this way, for instance having the equation V = IR, solve for R and bam plug in a resistor, but that of course wont work because it bleeds off energy in the form of heat.


Edit:

Also input can be low voltage AC

You understand the idea of V=IR, do you understand the idea of W=VA? 3V@1A=3W. 3W=.00402HP. Does this suggest anything to you?

In addition, no form of trading current for voltage will be lossless, so your 3V@1A will never convert to 30000V@.001A in practice.

 

Typically you generate a reasonably high voltage with a transformer and then increase it with a "cockroft walton multiplier", as once you get into the 10s of KVs you get a great deal of discharging and sparking unless you take very drastic insulation measures, oil baths etc. But they are very inefficient, as is the process of producing a plasma.

 

Hello,
I would like to build an ion lifter that runs on a very small amount of power.
I would like to be able to fit the power supply on the lifter.

The lift is extremely small vs the weight of the HV Power Supply + Battery or SuperCap.
You can get lift when the HV P/S is connected via very thin wires to the lifter

 

Have you considered a Tesla coil?

Be careful with such high voltage, even at low currents, it can still be a very unpleasant thing to encounter.

 

Have you considered a Tesla coil?

He wants the power supply to fly. It's not going to happen.

 

You understand the idea of V=IR, do you understand the idea of W=VA? 3V@1A=3W. 3W=.00402HP. Does this suggest anything to you?

In addition, no form of trading current for voltage will be lossless, so your 3V@1A will never convert to 30000V@.001A in practice.

Thank you, I am assuming HP refers to horse power. Indeed Ion propulsion produces very small amounts of force. That is why I am looking for something lighter, possible another HVPS that happens to be smaller or another method entirely. I still think this is theoretically possible (scroll down).


And yes I assume there is some sort of error range.

Typically you generate a reasonably high voltage with a transformer and then increase it with a "cockroft walton multiplier", as once you get into the 10s of KVs you get a great deal of discharging and sparking unless you take very drastic insulation measures, oil baths etc. But they are very inefficient, as is the process of producing a plasma.

Thank you for the reply, by cockroft walton multiplier am I correct in thinking you mean something like this

I had been playing around with something like that in a circuit simulator.

Recoginising that what your saying is that such a voltage multiplier is not a good option, I have been wondering the following somewhat relevant:

I had been wondering if there are boards or chips with "intergrated" capacitors, I was thinking such a board could plausibly be made with thousands of tiny capacitor on a single chip sort of like how they make CPU chips since all that is required is a gap between two conductors at some (tiny) distance apart, and optionally an insulation material between them.

In this case the board might be light weight and small and possibly charge faster (but probably far less charge overall).

Have you considered a Tesla coil?

Be careful with such high voltage, even at low currents, it can still be a very unpleasant thing to encounter.


View attachment 172415
View attachment 172413
View attachment 172414

I am unsure how I would put that on the ion lifter.
I have seen this though

The lift is extremely small vs the weight of the HV Power Supply + Battery or SuperCap.
You can get lift when the HV P/S is connected via very thin wires to the lifter

He wants the power supply to fly. It's not going to happen.

Im thinking that this may be possible if I make a big enough lifter, knowing this may increases the power requirement, I think it may be possible to narrow down the right
power to size to weight ratio in the following way:

* each "module" (say a triangle lifter) produces x - weight newtons of surplus thrust and costs y power
* amount of lifter "modules" needed = ( weight of supply / ( ( x - weight ) * ( y / power supplied ) ) )

 

You really cant do anything "small" at the sort of voltages you are talking about, even with a very good insulator like PTFE the dielectric strength is "only" 22 kV/mm so you need at least 4.5mm of the stuff to stop sparking @100Kv.

 

My original point is that no supply you can practically make will be able to lift itself, there's not enough power density in batteries.

 

There are some hurdles to overcome before you achieve working ion propelled flight on the earth. At this point it seems impossible to fly the battery and high voltage generator. One only on propelled flight I have noticed used, at a minimum, a thing wire to connect the high voltage with respect a stationary electrode (earth).

In outer space things get a little easier: Though the craft and high voltage source have mass and therefore inertial, they don't have weight so no need for friction burdened suspension or load bearing wheels or similar.

.That doesn't mean you should not try, only that you should be prepared to spend a lot of resources in you quest.

 

Variant 1 (DC)- Cockroft-Walton circuit on rather high frequency
Variant 2 (AC)- Tesla coil with two-phase Kacher circuit
Variant 3 (mono-polar pulse source) - custom made car ignition coil (ferrite core, larger distances etc)