I couldn't find this specific issue addressed, so I need help. I hope this is the correct forum.

I don't know what to do next or with what tools to find and correct a problem with an AC outlet/circuit in the home.

The problem started when the clothes washer stopped without finishing. It appeared to complete the wash cycle, but stopped at the spin cycle. Breaker not tripped. Washer motor checked out fine.

We ran an extension cord from an outlet on a different circuit & the washer works fine & completes all cycles. So we concluded the problem must be with the outlet/circuit where the washer originally had been plugged in.

Steps taken thusfar to find problems with this outlet/circuit:

I. Plugged 3-pronged outlet checker (with 3 lights) into outlet socket. Middle & right lights came on, left light stays off. The tester label says this "off, on, on" display means the outlet is wired correctly. To be sure, it wasn't just that socket, I inserted the tester in the other socket (duplex outlet) and it displayed just those same two lights.

2. Used a Triplett auto ranging multimeter (set to ~V) and it showed: Only 60v between Hot & Neutral; only 60v between Hot & Ground; & 0v between Neutral & Ground (for both sockets). Then, I removed the outlet faceplate & placed the multimeter prongs directly on the hot (black) wire and the neutral (white) wire to the outlet - still only 60v.

3. Plugged a Klein circuit tracer transmitter into one of the outlet's sockets, went to the electrical panel, removed the panel cover, then used the Klein receiver to identify the correct circuit breaker in the panel. I switched that breaker off & - to verify - returned to the problem outlet & confirmed it had no voltage at all. I then returned to the electrical panel and replaced that 20A breaker (just to eliminate it as a possible cause).

4. Then, before leaving the panel, I used a screwdriver to loosen each screw, slightly move the wire, and then firmly re-tighten that screw for all neutral bar connections (white wires), next I did the same for all ground bar connections, (bare wires), and finally I made sure for each breaker that the screw securing the hot (black) wire was tight (I didn't first loosen any of these screws). I did this both to eliminate a loose connection at the panel as the cause for this problem as well as to eliminate a loose connection somewhere else in the panel as a possible cause of a later problem with another circuit (seemed prudent to do while I already had the panel cover off.)

5. I checked the problem outlet's sockets & connection wires again (as above in 1 &2) - No difference.

What are the next things I should check, how do I do each, & what tool/tester do I use?

Thanks in advance for any help,
Paul

 

A modern VOM will read a voltage due to high impedance, you may have an open neutral, use a ~60w test lamp, and check the voltage at the breaker and the outlet, if you don't have any RCB or GFI then you should get a full light from 120v to N and from 120v to GND.
Max.

 

What I actually suspect is a bad ground. My assumption here, is that the wire is daisy chained to multiple outlets. A bad ground can simply be a twisted ground without a wire nut.

Confirm if the following are true:

1. Correct reading at the breaker
2. Incorrect readings at the dryer.

There is a tool that can help, but it's too expensive and that's this one: http://www.idealindustries.ca/produ...cuit_analyzers/suretest_circuit_analyzers.php

if you have bad readings at the breaker at panel stop.

Since you have 0V between gnd and neutral, it's safe to measure resistance.

Hopefuly, you know the path of the wiring and can bisect the path. e.g. make the measurements in the miiddle. if they are wrong. Bisect the first segment. remember every time you measure resistance, measure the voltage first and don;t wiggle anything.

Grounds twisted together without a wirenut and attached to the back of the box can actually do this. There is nothing to make a gas tite connection and the copper oxidizes.

In the US, with a metal box, you have to ground the box and ground the outlet separately. You cannot rely on friction to make that contact UNLESS a special outlet is used.

This can get tricky if you don;t have the tapped hole for the ground screw or have to resort to ground clips.
re-iterating, you have a ground entering the box and one leaving. A ground tap to the metal box and a ground tap to the ground of the outlet. They need to be solid and not JUST TWISTED.

In any event, pulling other connected stuff out of any other outlets will help. You can probe continuity ACROSS a twisted connection

Take a pic of what you find. can walk you through a proper fix. Wiggling stuff may make things work again.

Anyway, I suspect a bad ground in a daisy chained box. I know how 60 V appears.

 

The bottom line is a VOM is not that much use on a problem such as this, the test lamp is far more 'Illuminating' IMO.
Max.

 

I would start as Max suggested giving the outlet a light load like a 40 to 60 watt incandescent lamp. Check the voltage with a lamp as load.

I had a similar problem once which was intermittent. While on vacation we had friends house and dog sit. They did some home improvement and one was the son of a very good friend. He was also a journeyman electrician. I had them install ceiling lights in the basement. They were all incandescent overhead bulbs. Occasionally they were dim? Turns out my journeyman electrician poked the added line into the circuit breaker and tightened the screw. Problem was wire was not under the screw buy laying against it. Opened the panel and wiggled the wire, lights blinked on and off.

Since the above worked fine it is not likely your problem at all, however, if this outlet is fed from another outlet as in a daisy chain there could be a loose hot or neutral in the outlet feeding the one you have a problem with. So when you turn off the breaker look for other outlets on that same line. Might be worth a look.

Ron

 

Thanks VERY MUCH to all three of you for responding with these wonderful ideas and advice. This problem is at a relative's house and I'll be returning there in the next day or so to attack it again using your great recommendations. I'll let you know the results.

I would appreciate a few clarifications, however.

MAX: I will indeed start with your recommendation. I assume what I'm looking for is whether the light bulb appears dim or full strength. If the bulb appears dim, I assume I should take that as confirming that only 60v is actually getting to the outlet; but what do I do after that to remedy the problem? And, if the bulb appears to have full illumination, am I to assume 120v is getting to the outlet? If so, what does that tell me about the problem and how to fix it? And, in either case, for my next steps, do you recommend anything different than what KISS suggested?

RON: I know this sounds stupid, but how do I check the voltage with the lamp as a load? I'm imagining bending one prong on the lamp cord plug out 90 degrees and inserting the other prong into one slot of a socket in the outlet, then placing one multimeter lead in the open slot of that same outlet socket and touching the other multimeter prong to the bent prong on the lamp cord's plug. Is that what I should do or is there a different method I should use?

KISS: Yes, the reading is correct at the breaker in the panel (marked "Washer") and it is incorrect at the outlet for the washer. I have not yet removed this outlet from the box, so I can't say whether it may be part of a "daisy chain". But when I remove the outlet, if I find only a single 3-wire cable coming into the box, it seems that only tells me either (1) the cable is a 'home run' back to the panel (a circuit dedicated just to this outlet) or (2) that this outlet may be the last member of a "daisy chain." So, in that event, is there an easy way to determine which it is? Also, I have replaced an outlet in another box in another room of this house. In that case, the original electrician brought the ground wire into the box, wrapped it around a screw (tightened) in the metal box, then took the ground wire to and secured it to the ground screw on the outlet. Is this the "separate" grounding method you intended? If not, can you describe what that method should be?

Again, thanks to all.
Paul

 

MAX: I will indeed start with your recommendation. I assume what I'm looking for is whether the light bulb appears dim or full strength. If the bulb appears dim, I assume I should take that as confirming that only 60v is actually getting to the outlet; but what do I do after that to remedy the problem? And, if the bulb appears to have full illumination, am I to assume 120v is getting to the outlet? If so, what does that tell me about the problem and how to fix it? And, in either case, for my next steps, do you recommend anything different than what KISS suggested?
Paul

It is possible the lamp will be dim or hardly light at all when a load is applied, actually the best way is to connect a test lamp across the outlet terminals with the breaker off, after connecting, turn the breaker back on and measure the voltage whilst the load is connected.
Also measure from live to GND.
If low voltage and it is OK at the breaker, it indicates a problem up stream from the outlet from whereever it is sourced.
Max.

 

KISS: Yes, the reading is correct at the breaker in the panel (marked "Washer") and it is incorrect at the outlet for the washer. I have not yet removed this outlet from the box, so I can't say whether it may be part of a "daisy chain". But when I remove the outlet, if I find only a single 3-wire cable coming into the box, it seems that only tells me either (1) the cable is a 'home run' back to the panel (a circuit dedicated just to this outlet) or (2) that this outlet may be the last member of a "daisy chain." So, in that event, is there an easy way to determine which it is?

No. Wire tracers (read expensive) can help. They can even locate breaks.

Also, I have replaced an outlet in another box in another room of this house. In that case, the original electrician brought the ground wire into the box, wrapped it around a screw (tightened) in the metal box, then took the ground wire to and secured it to the ground screw on the outlet. Is this the "separate" grounding method you intended? If not, can you describe what that method should be?

Yes. Both the box and the outlet have a wire.

I just went through the exercise where there was a hot to ground short that I had to find and a few years ago, the bad ground that i had to find.

Look here http://electrical-inspector.blogspot.com/2013/06/electrical-boxes.html at the boxes in 6.1

Toward the bottom right of the round knock-out there is a threaded hole. This is for a green ground screw.

This

isn't a bad video and neither is this

one.

I prefer to use the flexible green wires. You can see where a product like this https://www.cesco.com/Ideal-30-3287...-Tail--12-AWG--5-Inch-Length--25-Bag/p2085926 would be useful.

These https://www.graybar.com/store/en/gb/spring-steel-zinc-plated-grounding-clip-88255030 clips are used when there are no screw holes. They are next to impossible to install.

 

You've probably got the most common, and shittiest method of residential roping there: "push-wired" receptacles.

"Springs" and electrical current are a very bad (but legal) combination. While modern "wirenuts" use "spring", the actual conductors are held in contact with each other, and the spring-tempered metal acts to hold the wires together as opposed to act as a conductor, much like solder did 70 years ago.

In any case, go through the place and correctly pig-tail the wiring and use commercial quality receptacles with screw terminals (5252 or equal),,,, or burn the joint down and take the insurance money.

Voltage readings to the bare or green insulated groundING conductor should match those to the white insulated groundED conductor, but your concern is predominantly the voltage between your "hot" and the white, grounded conductor. This pertains to 120v (nominal) phase-to-neutral circuits.

 

RON: I know this sounds stupid, but how do I check the voltage with the lamp as a load? I'm imagining bending one prong on the lamp cord plug out 90 degrees and inserting the other prong into one slot of a socket in the outlet, then placing one multimeter lead in the open slot of that same outlet socket and touching the other multimeter prong to the bent prong on the lamp cord's plug. Is that what I should do or is there a different method I should use?

You simply place a lamp with an everyday incandescent bulb into the socket. What this does is actually give the outlet some work to do. While the lamp is plugged in does the outlet have voltage? This can be done by pulling a duplex outlet slightly from the box and measuring the terminals or plug the lamp into one duplex outlet and use the meter to measure the lower. The thinking here is a meter alone does not place any load on the circuit so there is a possibility a loose connection along the way will not show up on the meter. Loading the outlet will make any loose connection problems more apparent.

Since you found your problem this will serve for future reference.
<EDIT> The above statement does not apply. Wrong thread.

Ron

 

Since you found your problem this will serve for future reference.

Ron

Where did he show that?
Max.

 

Where did he show that?
Max.

Obviously in a dream I had. A little slow on the uptake here this morning. I managed to confuse another thread with this thread and despite knowing this thread had reference to circuit breakers the other thread was fuses. Allow me to remove my screw up.

Here is what I closed my post with for those wondering:

Since you found your problem this will serve for future reference.

Thank You Max...

Ron

 

You've probably got the most common, and shittiest method of residential roping there: "push-wired" receptacles.
. . .
A basic premise of your OP is troublesome however: a clothes dryer operating at 120VAC nominal. I doubt it. It'd be pretty small and unusual.

I apologize if I somehow gave the impression that the outlet at issue here is "push-wired" (as I understand that term, it means one or more of the connections to the outlet is made by pushing a wire into a provided hole that employs a spring "clamp" to hold the wire in place for making the electrical connection, rather than looping and placing the wire under a provided screw and then tightening that screw to hold the wire in place for making the electrical connection). On this outlet, all connected wires are by screwed-down connections.

Also, the appliance at issue is a clothes WASHER not a DRYER. [The clothes dryer is on a separate dedicated 220V circuit and does not have a problem.]

Thanks,
Paul

 

KISS: Thanks for the additional information!

I watched both videos and looked at all your links.

The box for the "other" outlet in the home that I described earlier DID have the threaded hole you referenced, along with a green ground screw. That outlet was wired in the same manner shown in your second video for the FINAL outlet in that chain of two outlets: The ground wire coming into that box was looped around the green ground screw of the box (leaving about 6" of bare wire), then the green ground screw of the box was tightened on that loop and the end of the remaining 6" of ground wire was looped under the green ground screw of the outlet and that ground screw then was tightened down. No pigtail was used. To me, connecting the ground wire to the box in this manner has the identical effect of using the "flexible green wires" you referenced, doesn't it?

What had confused me earlier was this statement: "you have to ground the box and ground the outlet separately." I took that to mean a separate EXTERNAL ground wire had to come into the box to be attached to each of the box itself and the outlet. I had never seen anything like that and I couldn't figure out where a second external ground wire would come from.

After watching the videos, I now believe what you meant by that statement is that each of the box and the outlet must have its own tightly secured ground connection, starting with the box itself (so, presumably, one should not first loop the incoming ground wire around the outlet ground screw and then take the remaining ground wire extension from the outlet to the box or anywhere else, such as to another outlet).

Specifically:

1. When the outlet is either (a) the LAST outlet in a chain or (b) the ONLY outlet on the circuit, then the ground connection CAN BE made with just a single long ground wire by first looping that wire under (and tightening down) the box ground screw so that about 6" of that ground wire extends away from that box ground screw; then loop the end of the remainder of that ground wire and place that loop under (and tighten down) the outlet box ground screw. That way, each of the box and the outlet has a securely screwed down (thusly "separate") ground wire connection, beginning with the box.

2. When the outlet is in a daisy chain and is NOT the final outlet, the ground wire coming into the box still can be looped under the tightened ground screw of the box (as described above), but the remaining 6" extension of that ground wire does not get attached directly to a device and, instead, that remaining extension of the ground wire must be twisted together with one end from each of two other "ground" wires: (a) the ground wire in another cable (going back out of the box to the next device in the daisy chain); and (b) a pigtail wire, the other end of which will be looped and placed under the ground screw of the outlet before that screw is also tightened down. This also gives each of the box and the outlet a securely screwed down (thusly "separate") ground wire connection, again beginning with the box.

Is all that correct?

Paul

 

Thanks Ron, I appreciate the explanation.

So would there be no difference in what I can learn by (a) plugging the lamp in to the top socket of the outlet and measuring the voltage at the bottom socket of that same outlet (as you describe), as opposed to (b) using the multimeter to complete the electrical connection for the lamp (as I tried to describe earlier)?

Also, if the outlet's sockets already are measuring at only 60v, what might I learn from measuring the voltage with this load applied?

Thanks,
Paul

 

MAX: Thanks for the explanation.

I'm trying to figure out what different things I'm likely to learn here.

So assuming that - BEFORE the lamp is plugged in - the voltage at the breaker still measures as 120v and at the outlet still measures as only 60v (measured hot-neutral & hot-ground), then AFTER the lamp is plugged in, what will it mean if the voltage at the outlet then measures:

1. 120v;
2. 60v; or
3. something else?

(Obviously, I'm trying to save myself a trip back here, then back there, after my next encounter with this outlet <g>)

Thanks,
Paul

 

As others suggested, I would take the plate off the outlet and plug in a load or the appliance that does not work, and read the actual voltage at the socket.
From both Live to N and to GND.
Whether you get a reading still of 60v or something less, this would indicate the fault being from where ever the circuit is fed from, or a junction point.
A collapse to zero would indicate a high resistance connection somewhere.
Max.

 

I couldn't find this specific issue addressed, so I need help. I hope this is the correct forum.

I don't know what to do next or with what tools to find and correct a problem with an AC outlet/circuit in the home.

The problem started when the clothes washer stopped without finishing. It appeared to complete the wash cycle, but stopped at the spin cycle. Breaker not tripped. Washer motor checked out fine.

We ran an extension cord from an outlet on a different circuit & the washer works fine & completes all cycles. So we concluded the problem must be with the outlet/circuit where the washer originally had been plugged in.

Steps taken thusfar to find problems with this outlet/circuit:

I. Plugged 3-pronged outlet checker (with 3 lights) into outlet socket. Middle & right lights came on, left light stays off. The tester label says this "off, on, on" display means the outlet is wired correctly. To be sure, it wasn't just that socket, I inserted the tester in the other socket (duplex outlet) and it displayed just those same two lights.

2. Used a Triplett auto ranging multimeter (set to ~V) and it showed: Only 60v between Hot & Neutral; only 60v between Hot & Ground; & 0v between Neutral & Ground (for both sockets). Then, I removed the outlet faceplate & placed the multimeter prongs directly on the hot (black) wire and the neutral (white) wire to the outlet - still only 60v.

3. Plugged a Klein circuit tracer transmitter into one of the outlet's sockets, went to the electrical panel, removed the panel cover, then used the Klein receiver to identify the correct circuit breaker in the panel. I switched that breaker off & - to verify - returned to the problem outlet & confirmed it had no voltage at all. I then returned to the electrical panel and replaced that 20A breaker (just to eliminate it as a possible cause).

4. Then, before leaving the panel, I used a screwdriver to loosen each screw, slightly move the wire, and then firmly re-tighten that screw for all neutral bar connections (white wires), next I did the same for all ground bar connections, (bare wires), and finally I made sure for each breaker that the screw securing the hot (black) wire was tight (I didn't first loosen any of these screws). I did this both to eliminate a loose connection at the panel as the cause for this problem as well as to eliminate a loose connection somewhere else in the panel as a possible cause of a later problem with another circuit (seemed prudent to do while I already had the panel cover off.)

5. I checked the problem outlet's sockets & connection wires again (as above in 1 &2) - No difference.

What are the next things I should check, how do I do each, & what tool/tester do I use?

Thanks in advance for any help,
Paul

My first thought was a 60-0-60 supply - but most testers should show that as a ground or neutral fault.

 

Yeah Ron, I've apparently let harmless confusion mess with me too. Oh well....

 

Thanks Max. That helps. I'm going over later this afternoon and will try all these.

Paul