This is not a political thread, so PLEASE don't make it become one.

I've seen several threads here talking about economy, this is about economy.

I was reading this: http://endofcapitalism.com/about/2-what-is-capitalism/

But I'm having a hard time finding an alternative to growth while maintaining living standard like in the Western world. Or is the key that living standard has to decrease?

While I feel that our current crisis is not like any other before (Americans here probably know that very well) and I also feel that, logically, there must be an end to our growth system because of limited natural ressources I don't get how the world will be working without it. Too futuristic.

I would really like to come back in 300 years or so to see how it went.

 

I thaught when growth stops its called a ressesion.

 

Fox news today were talking about rising gas prices,one of the host said

the amount of gas U.S. exports to other countries. The main host said I don't

like that question. The new is covering up the fact that while gas prices go up

the U.S. exports lots of gas that could be used to lower prices.So the good guy

news and bad guy news are together keeping information from the public.They

have us thinking that off shore oil is the problem of increasing prices. Since

people have been spending less on buying fuel,they just export it instead of

stock piling for high prices,according to oil web sites,the information is very

public. So I guest its about trade agreements,regardless how it effect us.

 

I could go into great detail explaining our addiction to growth. PM me if you want to hear more.

 

I knew MrChips would bite on this one. I'm at the same point in my understanding - a system based on perpetual growth is doomed to failure from the outset, but in a system NOT based on perpetual growth, there is little or no incentive to produce, and hence a devolution to nomadic/caveman society. I don't know the answer. MrChips please consider yourself Pm'd. I'd like to hear what you have to say, or perhaps there is a more efficient way that 3 people can talk? are you a member of any other forums that allow politics? This is sure to venture into politics.

 

Out of pocket money,that adds up.if you fill up for $100.00 when that

was $50.00 a month ago.Less credit cards for back up as 10 years ago.

This will be felt across the country on purchases.This is simply math,the

super rich get richer,the what left of the middle class feals the pinch.

What are you paying more for,food, gas, what other out of pocket Items

are you not buying.Do you keep up your bad habit purchases,you know yours.

 

I appreciate your comments.

I thaught when growth stops its called a ressesion.

Yes, it could be called recession if you think that the current form of economic cycles (capitalism) is the only form possible.
The question is, is there any other form possible.

What happens when natural ressources end? Take oil, noone denies it, it will end soon, maybe our generation won't see it, the next one will.
Almost all current means of transportation is based on it not to speak of LOTS of other products. Any replacement for it will also end one day if based on a natural ressource that is used faster than it can be recreated.
That's just one example.

So my question is where are we going with this?

A realistic view into the future.

 

There is a base assumption society is static, it isn't. Population growth definitely factors in, but at some point that has to become static or it gets very crowded. We are not that close in the USA , but we need to curb the waste somewhat.

The one area that can grow indefinitely is knowledge base. As we know how to do more, we can do more, and not all of it is negative as some doom sayers would have us believe. The trick is to slowly phase out technologies that are not sustainable from those that are. We (society) are not very good at this I'm afraid.

Where the politics comes in is those people who have something to loose if the old ways die. In some cases they stand to loose everything, so to them it is a perceived issue of life and death.

Yet changes do come, it is at a slower pace than those who would like us to live without electricity would like, and faster than those who never want to see change want. For those who like SciFi it is a large part of the genre.

 

The root of the problem lies in how money is created--if money was real (actually based upon gold and silver), everything would be stable and there would be no inflation--the bankers wings would be clipped. Instead, the bankers have created this fraudulent monetary system where fiat money is 'loaned into existence'. This works to a certain degree, provided that growth is continuous so that money is continuously created, but it relies now upon the establishment of credit--if the bankers refuse to loan it into existence, the economy collapses, they grab the tangible assets and they benefit wonderfully--this happens both on small scale (recession) and on large scale (depression). Inflation is inherent in this system and long-term, it is unsustainable. Things are so bad now, that entire countries are defaulting and the bankers will soon own the world.

To establish more rigid controls over society, they have cooked up this fraudulent carbon tax scheme where all consumption is based upon your carbon footprint--it is supposedly based upon 'saving the planet' environmental concerns--if so, why are the bankers in running the show because it is apparent that they really care less about the environment. What we are really seeing is the merging of banking and government--fascism at is finest!

While I admit that unbridled population growth and consumption of natural resources is a legitimate issue, our monetary system is at the heart of our current problems.

 

There isn't one, the west has lived on credit and well beyond their means for nearly a 100 years. Just a matter of time before it all collapses. I thought it was interesting Ron Paul said we no longer live in a capitalist country anymore we actually live in a fascist country.

 

There isn't one, the west has lived on credit and well beyond their means for nearly a 100 years. Just a matter of time before it all collapses. I thought it was interesting Ron Paul said we no longer live in a capitalist country anymore we actually live in a fascist country.

The Federal Reserve Act (private banking consortium) was signed into law in 1913--It completely revamped the US monetary system and has since created unfathomable debt--intended to self-destruct to the bankers benefit.

 

The root of the problem lies in how money is created--if money was real (actually based upon gold and silver), everything would be stable and there would be no inflation--the bankers wings would be clipped. Instead, the bankers have created this fraudulent monetary system where fiat money is 'loaned into existence'. This works to a certain degree, provided that growth is continuous so that money is continuously created, but it relies now upon the establishment of credit--if the bankers refuse to loan it into existence, the economy collapses, they grab the tangible assets and they benefit wonderfully--this happens both on small scale (recession) and on large scale (depression). Inflation is inherent in this system and long-term, it is unsustainable. Things are so bad now, that entire countries are defaulting and the bankers will soon own the world.

To establish more rigid controls over society, they have cooked up this fraudulent carbon tax scheme where all consumption is based upon your carbon footprint--it is supposedly based upon 'saving the planet' environmental concerns--if so, why are the bankers in running the show because it is apparent that they really care less about the environment. What we are really seeing is the merging of banking and government--fascism at is finest!

While I admit that unbridled population growth and consumption of natural resources is a legitimate issue, our monetary system is at the heart of our current problems.

I agree that banks create the problem by creating money, but I don't agree that backing the dollar with gold or silver fixes the problem. Prior to the 1913 creation of the federal reserve and prior to the gold & silver backing abandoned later, there was still a problem with inflation. It even happened in ancient times - that's actually how banks became banks. They evovled from vault owners into banks when they figured out how to create money out of nothing while still "backing" it with gold.

This is both the economic engine that got us to the height of civilization we are at, and the instrument of that very civilization's demise.

Some suggest a 100% reserve system would fix the problem, but as I see it, in a 100% reserve system, the banks, stripped of their counterfeiting privileges, would have no choice but charge "insane" interest rates on loans to make a profit. They would be just like the payday loan houses - in fact, I think that's why the payday loan houses charge such high interest; they don't have the privilege of creating money, so they can only loan out of a pool of their OWN money. I think this would result in loans becoming something of the past, only used in dire circumstances and everything would slow down. Money would change hands much more slowly. much more personal hoarding of money by individuals and not spending it, and the economy would grind to a halt. This is only the personal opinion of a guy who spends a little time reading; I'm not an economist or a scholar.

 

I find economics fairy tales fly in the face of both literary and engineering common sense.

My other piece of advice, Copperfield, said Mr. Micawber, you know. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

Accumulation = Input minus Output

 

I find economics fairy tales fly in the fact of both literary and engineering common sense.

Which economics fairy tale are you referring to?

 

I agree that banks create the problem by creating money, but I don't agree that backing the dollar with gold or silver fixes the problem. Prior to the 1913 creation of the federal reserve and prior to the gold & silver backing abandoned later, there was still a problem with inflation. It even happened in ancient times - that's actually how banks became banks. They evovled from vault owners into banks when they figured out how to create money out of nothing while still "backing" it with gold.

Printing gold and silver certificates without backing is fraud--a 'just' judicial system can deal with such. Without fraudulent expansion of the money system that there is no inflation. The majority of interest now charged is to cover inflation--without inflation, interest would be lower--my take...

 

Which economics fairy tale are you referring to?

"Jam tomorrow but never, never jam today"

 

Printing gold and silver certificates without backing is fraud--a 'just' judicial system can deal with such. Without fraudulent expansion of the money system that there is no inflation. The majority of interest now charged is to cover inflation--without inflation, interest would be lower--my take...

Agreed. The 'fraction' part of "fractional Reserve Banking" is where the fraud is allowed to creep in. Anything other than 100% reserve banking is fraudulent IMO. However, in the absence of fractional reserve banking the nation wouldn't be the superpower it is today. I don't know if that makes it a good thing or a bad thing.

 

"Jam tomorrow but never, never jam today"

Ok, but you're still being too cryptic for the likes of my simple mind. I'll just ask: Are you criticizing the economy or are you criticizing something I said?

 

Nothing you said, bro.

 

This may not be relavent, but betwean the 2 world wars the German monetry system collapsed. Many people were bankrupt (not sure how the banks fared but i bet they had all the assets). Out of the wrecked economy rose the Nazi party offering employment rebuilding Germany. This is where dangerous politics can come into the picture. (Sorry about the politics bit but they are tied together).