I've been studying the subject of wave/particle duality and I'm trying to find the actual speed of matter waves.

I'm familiar with formula (wave length = Planck's Constant / momentum), but I haven't been able to find a formula that gives the actual speed of matter waves. There is the familiar formula V = f X wave length, but what is the frequency of these waves.

Matter waves are also known as "De Broglie Waves" and some articles imply that matter waves travel at the speed of light in free space. This seems a bit fast, but I'm wondering how this could be calculated using simple algebra.

Also while I'm on the subject, why doesn't an electron in an orbital of an atom radiate energy because of synchrontron radiation? If the electron is in a circular orbital, it must be accelerated and hence it must radiate energy. The best explanation I've found is that the "electron" in an atomic orbital is actually like a stationary charged ring with the wave action moving in a circular or elliptical path. In that case, the "electron" is actually a point of maximum charge density in the wave.

 

I've been studying the subject of wave/particle duality and I'm trying to find the actual speed of matter waves.

I'm familiar with formula (wave length = Planck's Constant / momentum), but I haven't been able to find a formula that gives the actual speed of matter waves. There is the familiar formula V = f X wave length, but what is the frequency of these waves.

Matter waves are also known as "De Broglie Waves" and some articles imply that matter waves travel at the speed of light in free space. This seems a bit fast, but I'm wondering how this could be calculated using simple algebra.

Also while I'm on the subject, why doesn't an electron in an orbital of an atom radiate energy because of synchrontron radiation? If the electron is in a circular orbital, it must be accelerated and hence it must radiate energy. The best explanation I've found is that the "electron" in an atomic orbital is actually like a stationary charged ring with the wave action moving in a circular or elliptical path. In that case, the "electron" is actually a point of maximum charge density in the wave.

We've been over the electron question before. They don't radiate because they don't travel in circular orbits.

 

+1 @Papabravo
https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/...lectron-orbit-in-an-atom.138637/#post-1163750
https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/...n-orbit-in-an-atom.138637/page-3#post-1167836

 

+1 @Papabravo
https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/...lectron-orbit-in-an-atom.138637/#post-1163750
https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/...n-orbit-in-an-atom.138637/page-3#post-1167836

What he said.

 

We've been over the electron question before. They don't radiate because they don't travel in circular orbits.

OK - So the "electron" is more like a charged ring with a wave (with a point of maximum and minimum charge) traveling around it.

Now my second question: What happens if a hydrogen atom is ionized (the electron is completely detached) and it is allowed to fall back under the force of the electric field between it and the nucleus. If the minimum energy is 13.5 ev and the electron follows a tangential path, it will enter an orbital in the ground state. But what happens if the electron falls straight toward the nucleus rather than a tangential path? It seems the electron would not enter an orbital and crash point blank into the proton.

 

OK - So the "electron" is more like a charged ring with a wave (with a point of maximum and minimum charge) traveling around it.

Now my second question: What happens if a hydrogen atom is ionized (the electron is completely detached) and it is allowed to fall back under the force of the electric field between it and the nucleus. If the minimum energy is 13.5 ev and the electron follows a tangential path, it will enter an orbital in the ground state. But what happens if the electron falls straight toward the nucleus rather than a tangential path? It seems the electron would not enter an orbital and crash point blank into the proton.

In order to know the path you have to violate the uncertainty principle. You just can't do what you want to do; they physics won't let you.

 

In order to know the path you have to violate the uncertainty principle. You just can't do what you want to do; they physics won't let you.

I'm not trying to know the path itself.

What I'm asking is whether there is any chance (if any) that an ionized electron can fall into an atom on a path straight toward the nucleus and crashing like a meteor.

 

No.

 

I'm not trying to know the path itself.

What I'm asking is whether there is any chance (if any) that an ionized electron can fall into an atom on a path straight toward the nucleus and crashing like a meteor.

It is unlikely. Far away from the nucleus the electron is basically free to roam about at random given it's energy and momentum. As it approaches a nucleus, it's behavior changes to have discrete quantum behavior. That is energy, angular momentum, and spin are all quantized. Each time there is a change in energy levels from higher to lower there is radiation. AFAIK, there is essentially zero probability of a linear approach to a nucleus.

 

Glenn......as far as modern science goes.......they believe that atoms and the particles that make them, are smudges. They tell us.....that we can not think as an atom as having a physical structure. It's wave mechanics.

So everything in the universe.....stars, bowling balls and such............the atom particles that make these large structures.........has no little structure.

Welcome to modern science. The science of contradiction.

Not just particles.........but FORCE itself........has structure. STRUCTURE is what is responsible for function. The way that fields react with one another......is because of structure.

Function comes from structure.

There are no particles.....in an atom.....that revolve or orbit other particles in the atom.

Particles....in an atom.....are lined up in a row. They alternate.....a positive charge and then a negative charge. They line up on an axle of magnetic flux. The positive charges rotate in one direction and the electrons rotate in the other. They have to rotate in opposite directions.....so that the magnetic flux lines up. This is how handedness works. My icon is a picture of a H2 atom. It has 2 protons and 2 electrons. The large loop that ties the four loops together represents common magnetic flux. The small loops are protons that rotate in one direction......the 2 large loops are electrons rotating in the other direction. My icon is not to scale. The small loop is actually about 600 times smaller than the electron. Huge size difference. The electron and proton line up vertically to each other. The RPM of the proton is much higher than the electron. And they are rotating in opposition. As they spin in opposition.....because of the mixing of harmonic RPMs......they spin in close....and then spin out away. The opposite rotating and opposite polarity of the spinning fields causes this motion.....because of field density of the charges. This is called atomic vibration. The in and out motion as they spin in opposition. The distance of this sideways vertical oscillation.....changes with temp.....and the state......gas, liquid and solid.

But the particle RPMs have only certain set speeds and can not be changed from that set.

All charge particles have TWO rotations. The magnetic rotation.....which is perpendicular to the electric rotation. The magnetic rotation......modulates the electric rotation(RPM) of a particle.

Take a 12 in. glass rod. Hang it vertically with some fishin line from the ceiling. Find the midpoint of the rod....and come out horizontally to 1 meter. Set an electroscope there. Rub the glass rod with a cat....til you get 100 volt reading on electroscope. The electroscope measures the field density of the rod. NOW....fold the rod in half. Don't cut it. The electroscope will read 200 volts now. We reduced the length(area of volume) by half.....but kept all the charge......the electric field density doubled. By constraining the area...we increased electric density. You may do the same with a balloon. Blow it up large. RUB cat. Watch field density increase as you let air out.

Now get a dowel pin with the diameter of a pencil about 20 in. long. Draw a straight line down the dowel. This is the 0 degree mark. Attach wire to line at edge of dowel at zero mark. While keeping wire taut.....wrap wire around dowel one full turn. Where the end of the turn happens(back at zero mark).....Mark it.... cut the wire and the dowel. The cut dowel length will be called the fundamental length. Or the length of one turn. If you straighten the wire.....it will be longer than the 1 turn fundamental length. The difference between these two lengths will depend on the diameter of dowel, diameter of wire, diameter of insulation on wire.

Now......with cut wire and cut dowel.....wrap a second turn around dowel. The wire will only go to half of the length of the dowel. When we added a turn.....we decreased coil length by one half.

Now draw a closed helix. The stripe(and only the stripe) on a hula hoop. Charge the helix. There is a charge repulsion across the diameter of the helix. The number of turns in the helix.....controls the diameter......and the density of the charge repulsion. The more the repulsion....the faster the spin. Particles store energy by spinning faster.....and by spinning smaller. When energy is absorbed by a particle.......it inducts more turns. This is why particles have energy steps.....you can not add one half of a turn.........it has to be multiples of 1 turns. To meet the zero or in phase mark of rotation. The original and absolute length of the charge never changes....it's just wound up tighter. The balance of these opposition forces(the repulsion of the electric and the contraction of the magnetic) Is what powers the ROTATIONS of the charge. It is in resonance......and because of no resistance......the spin is perpetual. The estimated half life of a charge particle is > e70 years.

Perpetual spin(motion,inertia).....IS NOT perpetual energy. An energy transfer......requires a change in RPM. Or frequencies. X-ray rates for electrons and gamma rates for the proton.

99% of all energy, mass and even motion is in the proton.