And what happens if they find out that the very large majority of vehicles do not pass and never did a good eal of the time in real life driving conditions?

I agree with you @tcmtech . There is no answer to that. The EPA doesn't even have a policy or defined test result that they could enforce. That is why the EPA's case against VW is not about a 30x excess of NOx emissions. It is about a lie. As I mentioned above, VW (and all car manufacturers) have to present a written document to the EPA that describes how the emission system works. Major components (sensors and controls) and the logic used as the car is driven by the consumer. The description given by VW did not account for the dual mode of action. Looking for test protocols and behaving one way vs. Higher performance, fuel economy and emissions in another case.

Simple and clean. Lied. Admitted guilt. No need to talk about test methods, conspiracy or anything else. Bumpers are not a part of this case, logic is.

 

So the whole stink is basically about VW slipping something past the paperwork and bureaucracy nazis and not real life what actually affects all of us events, working conditions or costs.

That sounds like something the government and its agencies would take far more seriously than real life how things actually work and perform events.
Paperwork is easier to track and follow. Real life working environments have all those damn highly variable variables that don't always act the way we want them to and tend to be so damn hard to accurately and repeatedly quantify and control with any high degree of certainty that they can almost make it impossible to show or prove anything beneficial was ever being done at all for the amounts of time effort and money that was been spent when weighed against what nature is/was already doing without our assumed contributions.

 

And what happens if they find out that the very large majority of vehicles do not pass and never did a good eal of the time in real life driving conditions?

Simple. Revise the test requirements so that all those vehicles genuinely meet them, then apply a legal fudge to back-date the regulations .

 

 

So the whole stink is basically about VW slipping something past the paperwork and bureaucracy nazis and not real life what actually affects all of us events, working conditions or costs.

That sounds like something the government and its agencies would take far more seriously than real life how things actually work and perform events.
Paperwork is easier to track and follow. Real life working environments have all those damn highly variable variables that don't always act the way we want them to and tend to be so damn hard to accurately and repeatedly quantify and control with any high degree of certainty that they can almost make it impossible to show or prove anything beneficial was ever being done at all for the amounts of time effort and money that was been spent when weighed against what nature is/was already doing without our assumed contributions.

That is the feedback I had from an engineer at Ford (formerly VW). It is apparently a very big deal because this process description is paired with the standardized test. No 'real world' testing would be accepted by the automotive companies (strong lobbying from automotive prevented it). A process document assures enforcement and limits changes once the approval to sell a given model is given by the E
PA.

Whether or not it makes sense, it is the only way that has been politically negotiated keep everyone honest. Kind of like an ISO 9000 audit. Say what you are going to do and do what you said you would do.

 

So, there is no need for "in use testing" as recommended by the ICCT and their paper about the disconnect between the testing and "real driving" is worthless.

 

So, there is no need for "in use testing" as recommended by the ICCT and their paper about the disconnect between the testing and "real driving" is worthless.

Real world testing is not needed if people do what they say and don't lie. There are lots of trust-based rules from government agencies from FDA to USDA and all the recalls associated with foods from burgers to peanut butter. I won't say in-use tests are needed for a prosecution but they may be a good indicator of whether cheating is happening or not - that is, the logic is followed as described by the auto companies.

 

If The economics say pay the fine ... VW will pay. Otherwise, the EPA will decide if they want to dedicate the resources for a court battle the might not win.

If you want accountability, do the investigation and go after all parties.

Why in 2010 didn't the EPA take action?

 

It is apparently a very big deal because this process description is paired with the standardized test. No 'real world' testing would be accepted by the automotive companies (strong lobbying from automotive prevented it).

Basically they know that in real life conditions it's impossible to meet the requirements so they told them to go pound sand much like the railroad industry has been doing since day one of advent of emissions regulations.

Whether or not it makes sense, it is the only way that has been politically negotiated keep everyone honest. Kind of like an ISO 9000 audit. Say what you are going to do and do what you said you would do.

As I have come to know standards like ISO 9000 are much like religions of the nature that they only work if you believe they work but if you don't believe they work they are for the most part useless.

 

As I have come to know standards like ISO 9000 are much like religions of the nature that they only work if you believe they work but if you don't believe they work they are for the most part useless.

Yes, it's like religion but if you SIN by cheating, the company goes to hell instead of to confession.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/26/b...ude-managers-who-turned-a-blind-eye.html?_r=0

FRANKFURT — A widening internal investigation at Volkswagen is focusing not only on who was responsible for installing illegal software designed to fool emissions testers, but also on which managers may have learned of the deception and failed to take appropriate action, a person briefed on the inquiry said.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/26/b...ude-managers-who-turned-a-blind-eye.html?_r=0

Back to the good congressman from NY, if somebody solved the low emissions + good performance conundrum of Diesel engines, why didn't anyone throw a party, the company file patents and so on.

Now that I ask, why didn't the technical community sing their own praises at technical conferences? Why didn't competitors look closely at the vehicles to see how VW managed to do it (after all, there were no patents to prevent duplicating VW's success)? Seems to me that the whole industry knew about it.

Here is another side story
I bought a car from a Honda / VW dealer when I worked near Detroit in 2002. They gave me a deal since nobody else was buying from them. After we agreed on a price, the salesman said, hey, one of those CRVs is loaded with options - do you want that one? I asked how much more? He said, nothing, all the rest of those VWs and Hondas will be sent to ford and GM next week, they don't care what options are on them.

From that, I would be pretty sure Ford and GM knew something was going on.

 

From that, I would be pretty sure Ford and GM knew something was going on.

Honor among thieves? Omertà

 

Honor among thieves? Omertà

Odd..you don't look Italian.

 

Odd..you don't look Italian.

I've seen some Sicilians that were pretty dark skinned. I've seen some northern Italians who were light skinned. He could be Italian or he could be the object of some inquisitive Italians who wanted to know if a couple of blacks on my unit were black all over. I told those girls to ask them, or go to the co-ed sauna at the club and see for themselves.

 

Odd..you don't look Italian.

Those guys are amateurs at keeping secrets.

"Intelligence community’s code of omertà"

 

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/epa-finds-audi-porsche-and-more-vw-diesels-faked-185452277.html

According to the agency, its testing following the first revelation about VW engines also found a two-mode setup in the 3-liter V-6 turbodiesels. When the vehicles sensed they were undergoing federal emissions testing, they would turn on a “temperature conditioning” mode that changed several engine settings. In that setting, higher exhaust temperatures warmed up the catalytic converter, allowing the vehicles to meet federal standards.

But exactly one second after the required testing time passed, the software switches to normal mode, which ends several strategies for limiting pollutants. The software also doesn’t turn on “temperature conditioning” if it doesn’t sense the vehicle is being tested. In this mode, the EPA found the VW, Audi and Porsche models spew up to nine times more nitrous oxides than allowed by law—a pollutant that causes smog and lung disease.

Another cheat mode.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/11/03/news/volkswagen-scandal-carbon-dioxide-fuel-consumption/

 

Wow. I wonder where this ends.

 

Wow. I wonder where this ends.

Right at the very top of the corporate ladder, I'm sure...